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Stiff upper lip

Mon Jul 25, 2005 Miss Vicky 

pinklitva writes:

We seem to be having rather a lot of bombs and terrorist attacks in the UK. Does Miss Vicky have any good advice on how to survive terrorist attacks? We are currently subscribing to lots of cuppas and stiff upper lip. However, is this enough?

It's a pickle, to be sure. You might consider slipping a slug of brandy into one of those cuppas.

Quite frankly, though, I'd be more worried about what this is doing to British society as a whole, as the powers-that-be respond to the threat of terrorism by curtailing everyone's civil liberties in the name of enhanced security. I would find it difficult to maintain a stiff upper lip while a trusted (and usually unarmed) police force guns down an innocent immigrant because he happened to approach a tube station. What a betrayal of trust. And what a victory for terrorism.

Some people were moved to reply

Hugh Jul 25, 2005 09:28 PM said:

Um? I find your perspective on the police shooting a bit twisted considering what I've read of the incident. The Brazilian spoke and understood English perfectly according to news items. He also was seen coming out of a suspect building. He was wearing a heavy coat in warm weather - perfect for hiding bombs. He was dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be. He failed to stop when ordered to do so. He jumped a turnstile (not paying which is theft) and ran for a train to get away.

Just how in this Hell that Arab maniacs have created are the police to determine this is a Brazilian behaving as none of his friends/family believe he ever would behave?

I think it all is very sad but I can't feel blame for the police. They've got a rotten job and if the English folk, and us Canadians too, don't recognize the need to keep aware and not panic like that Brazilian apparently did, then you might expect to get killed in the same way. We are at war with radical Islam. All the apologists trying to limit how these terrorists are referred to as being associated with Islam are fools if they cannot see that these radicals have taken their religion and used and twisted it to fit their hate. Moslems need to get it into their heads that they are going to be marks until this stops.

I'm baffled that Christian leaders have not pointed out that Jesus said, "There is no marriage in Heaven", and therefore that no one will have a wife. Not dead Moslem Islamist nor Christian nor Jew nor Hindu, nor Atheist. And that no Islamic scholar has regularly pointed out that Mohamed's Koran promised white raisins in Heaven, not white virgins and many or any wives, makes me wonder what is understood by any of these leaders. Moslems say they accept Jesus as a prophet and if so why do they ignore that he said there is no marriage and make a solid point that there therefore can be no wives in heaven - for anyone.

I think both Christian and Moslem leaders are quite short in not loudly and regularly getting to these points. Young and obviously ignorant people are being conned into dying for what is false. NO one will go to heaven for killing someone and be a real martyr. Jesus killed no one. It is others who killed him. A martyr is someone who dies doing good not the evil these sad and deceived Moslems are. Killing others is not martyrdom. What a trash definition they have made.

Um? Over and out!

Miss Vicky Jul 25, 2005 11:30 PM said:

Um. Thanks for sharing, Hugh. Goodness, I don't really know where to start.

The thing is, the terrorists have done a great job at getting the state to do their work for them. Now anyone with even the slightest brownish tinge to their skin is immediately suspect - even more so if they happen to be Muslim. And it's been that way not since the London bombings, but since September 11. And now whole communities live under intense scrutiny, and in fear, in Canada was well as the UK and the US.

First it was fear of being subjected to racially-motivated attacks, whether verbal or physical. Then we passed laws making it OK to arrest someone suspected of terrorism and detain them for an indefinite period, without charges and without even the right to see the "evidence" against them. Never mind that the only people detained on these security certificates were young Muslim men - nope, no racial profiling here!

Then people started getting hassled at airports and border crossings... and Maher Arar disappeared on his way back to Ottawa from a family visit overseas. We all know what happened to him - although we might not know had his wife not waged a relentless campaign to find out where he was and to bring him home. Now a lot of Muslims live in fear of traveling through or to the US.

So it's OK to murder innocent people because there are terrorists afoot? We didn't have this kind of stuff go down when the IRA was up to its shenigans, did we? So you're suggesting it's OK for Muslims or anyone with darker skin to be targets of racial profiling, because they share the same religion or skin colour as the "enemy", as you put it?

So you're basically suggesting that civil liberties, freedom of movement, of association, of religion are all fair game because we are "at war"?

This may seem like a holy war to you, Hugh, to Bush, to Bin Laden and others. But it's not a war that hatred, vengeance, retribution, hysteria, violence, ostracism, fear, repression, or bombs can end - whether the weapons are wielded by "us" or "them". And it is by no means holy.

Jason Jul 26, 2005 01:35 AM said:

Hey Hugh,

I happen to be a Muslim, though not an especially or even marginally devout one. (I'm quite agnostic, actually.) Still, I believe the Muslims of Canada, particularly those with a moral conscience, have a special burden to cultivate an ethic of introspection in their communities, to prevent the sort of ghettoization, fear, hatred, and paranoia into which disturbing numbers of Muslims in Britain and elsewhere have so tragically descended.

There are huge numbers of Muslims, many of whom live right here in Canada, who are sincerely devoted to human rights, civil rights, women's rights, sexual rights, pluralism, free speech, intellectual freedom, tolerance, co-existence, etc., etc. They take as their model and inspiration the progressive movements of North America and Europe. Their efforts are only hampered by irresponsible generalizations about Islam and Muslims. The two are not the same. There are aspects of Islam that are admirable (ex. the imperative to charity and care for orphans) and there are aspects that are admittedly deplorable (ex. the restrictions on women's rights). Similarly, there are Muslims who are admirable (ex. human rights activists like Shirin Ebadi and progressive religious scholars like Khaled Abou El Fadl) and there are Muslims who are deplorable (too many to name).

What Jesus did or did not do is entirely besides the point. Lines should not be drawn according to faith, but according to moral and political commitments, such as the opposition to violence and the promotion of peace and tolerance. In which case, the issue isn't what to do about Muslims, but what to do about those who promote a narrative of hatred and destruction, whether in the name of God or in the name of the State.

amckay Jul 26, 2005 09:07 AM said:

Um, it's not racial profiling to only arrest muslims when you know it's muslims doing it. It would be just stoopid policework to arrest e.g. a Catholic Priest when you know the people doing the crimes are doing it in the name of Islam.

It may be religious profiling, but profiling is how the police narrow down the suspects. That's the whole way an investigation works. You develop a profile of the type of person who would do this so that you can eliminate a whole bunch of people who do not need to be interogated. In this case, part of that profile is that the person would be muslim. I think the only surprise here is that home-grown Muslims were the culprits, which means the profile now has to be adjusted to include them. Ignoring that fact is doing a serious injustice to the people who are being murdered, and the rest of us who are being threatened.

Political correctness be damned.

It's a horrible thing that happened to the Brazilian fellow. But it's easy to condemn it from our armchairs. Walk a few miles in someone else's shoes and try to decide what you would have done if you had seen what Hugh described above. It's obvious only in 20/20 hindsight that a guy from Brazil might wear a heavy coat in the UK summer. Heck, the Jamacans working the fields across from my in-laws house here in the Annapolis Valley wear heavy hats and sweaters in 30C heat in the fields. Something is only obvious after you know it. Not before. By definition.

The Webgeek Jul 26, 2005 10:03 AM said:

Hugh. You obviously don't have a clue, and are now showing yourself to be a borderline racist, ignorant old fool. I don't suffer fools lightly Hugh. If this were my site, your posting privileges would be stripped, and that garbage you spewed above would have been removed. Miss Vicky has descided to let it stand for now though, but consider yourself warned. you are now tredding on very thin ice.

Amckay. you're getting pretty close in my books too. How dare you chastise us for "condemn[ing] it from our armchairs." That's all you do on this site. It's beggining to wear thin, and after reading Hugh's post,I'm not in the mood for one of our little tete-a-tete's today.

I'm losing patience for both of you.

I will post again later, but I am far, far too angry right now to make rational posts.

Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 10:42 AM said:

I do not believe that someone should be singled out for scrutiny solely on the basis of their race or religion. Not in the name of security, or anything else. It's easy to say that it's OK when you're not the targeted group. But the fact is that we all lose something when we allow fear and hatred to win.

Here is a piece on a recent survey of Canadian Muslims about their experiences with our police and security forces.

This article by a University of Windsor Professor describes some of the ways racial profiling has manifested in Canada since 9/11.

And I have walked a few miles in others' shoes - or hijabs, rather. Working on Monia Mazigh's campaign gave me a unique opportunity, not only to learn more about the Muslim community (or communities, that is - there's a lot of diversity among Ottawa's Muslims), but to experience first-hand the bigotry and hatred to which many are subjected. It was shocking. And it was profoundly disappointing to see the amount of racism lurking under the surface of our city.

I don't get angry like the Webgeek, anymore, when faced with stuff like the posts above. It just makes me very, very sad.

You'll find more info (and actions to take) here

The Webgeek Jul 26, 2005 10:59 AM said:

Hugh,
I was literally shaking with rage after reading the first paragraph of your post.

In particular:
He was dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be.

Last time I checked, wearing a heavy coat wasn't a crime. I guess wearing one while being dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be is though. Last time I checked, jumping a turnstile, while a crime, wasn't an automatic death sentence. I guess jumping one while being dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be is though.

When's the last time you put a coat on and wondered "Hmm, I wonder if cops will think I'm hiding a bomb under here?". Personally, I've never had to do that. then again, not being dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be, it's not a question I should have to think about, is it Hugh?

Have you ever had a cop pull a gun on you Hugh? I have. I was standing by my car and had an officer rush me for asking "Why" I had to step away from the vehicle. I panicked. I thought about running. Seriously. It's scary as shit to be faced with that kind of thing. Now, being a white man living in Canada, and, never having issues or mistreatment by the hands of authorities, I stayed put. The issue ended up being a case of mistaken identity. (A man with a similar profile had just robbed a bank in the area) But, since I'm not dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be, I guess I was allowed to live, eh Hugh?

Why did the guy run from police? I don't know. The only one who does had five bullets put in the back of his head for being dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be.
If I were to try and make an assumption, the fact that was Brazilian, Christian, and most likely, completely unaware that being dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be and acting suspicious while walking out of his building was grounds for triggering a "shoot to kill" order might have played a part. Obviously he was completely at fault in not knowing this.

Also, since he had a recently expired visa, and being at fault for not realizing how terrorist-y he looked, he might have thought that trying to give the cops the slip might be worth not getting deported.

And, of course it must be standard police business to not bother figuring out who, exactly, lives in a building their watching for terror suspects. No need to make sure they have the right guys. Anyone who's dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be is probably up to no good anyway, right Hugh? And it's obviously not standard police procerure to extra officers at the tube station entrance, so a terror suspect can be aprehended outside. No, Just hunt the fucker down and shoot him in cold blood if he runs, right? After all, he'll most likely be dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be, so it won't matter, now will it?

Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar Jul 26, 2005 11:22 AM said:

I'm able to accept the argument that the only way to stop a suicide bomber is to shoot them in the head.

The problem, of course, is when the victim isn't a suicide bomber.

A "license to kill" has to come with some responsibilities. Those police officers should now face a murder trial. They'll be given the opportunity to prove that what they did was justifiable. If they can't then they should be sentenced as murderers.

The rule of law may be deferred in a pressing emergency, but it has to enter back into the equation at some point.


The Webgeek Jul 26, 2005 11:40 AM said:

AMckay,
I also didn't have to get past your first paragraph before I was struck with utter nonesence.

Um, it's not racial profiling to only arrest muslims when you know it's muslims doing it. It would be just stoopid policework to arrest e.g. a Catholic Priest when you know the people doing the crimes are doing it in the name of Islam.

You're right. Expecting the members of an Islamic extremist organization to be Islamic exremists does make sence. So please explain to me how shooting a Brazilian Christian on a student Visa in the head 5 times is justifiable?

And I find it unbelievably hypocritical of you to condone the religious profiling of Muslims, when you went to town deriding us for being so insensitive "Christian Sensibilities" in regards to Same Sex Marriage not too long ago. I mean, on one hand, you don't want us to paint all Christians with the same homaphobic brush here -- but you seem inscenced at the idea that we might want a bit more evidence than "he looks like a muslim" as grounds for suspecting someone of being a terrorist. I guess, though, you see it as a matter of extremes, since there's never been any Christian wingnut Terrorists, eh?

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 11:55 AM said:

Well I've sure started a live conflict here!

First; we now know this morning that the Brazilian was illegally in England and thus likely ran because of it. That doesn't make his being killed any nicer.

Second: I don't care if this site becomes a stupid bunch of short minded censors of my right to speak what is the truth.

Before I left Ottawa I had been helping a Moslem, Saeed - running a small shop on O'Connor street (Heck's at Nepean & Gloucester - he's moved on I'm told) to know the answers for his Citizenship exam. So anyone who wants to think I'm a racist is a dolt. I have also met a good number of people of many races and I find few undesirable and a few Moslems have demonstrated goodness. My local pharmacist is a Moslem and a good friend of sorts.

I'd almost expect Webgeek to be dark skinned, he's made so much of a truthful comment. This unfortunate religious mess which has grown out of Islam has not grown from white skinned people, except in the historical connection of the stupid crusades the Catholic Church chose to associate with. It is, as A McKay has also pointed out, a fact that we aren't looking for whites, or Catholics or Hindus - if you can manage to tell the difference. My pharmacists family were Hindus before the Moslems forced them to change 200 years ago.

Vicky, Jason, Webgeek and any other who chooses to believe I'm suggesting attacking Moslems or all dark skinned people would be dead wrong. I would prefer to see no one attacked but the guilty. But how do you identify the guilty here?

And Vicky, Jason, and Webgeek shoot me down but have absolutely no method of dealing with this world wide problem.

I have been jumped and injured severely at my door by Ottawa police, and though the police have never pulled their guns on me in a number of conflicts I have been twice faced with criminals with their guns in my face. Once a shotgun later demonstrated by police to have had three slugs in it ready to blow anyone away. This in the hands of thieving motorcycle gang types who were robbing drug dealers to get enough money to pay their lawyers for previous arrests. They were quickly arrested after my face to face with them but not for any direct action of mine. They went off to idiotically rob another who knew exactly who they were and called police who knew where they were and quickly rounded them up. They went on to more stupidity before finally going to prison.

But I digress.

Jason; I hope by now you grasp that I'm not against Moslems who are true to "Peace" which is what I'm told "Islam" means. Nor am I against any person of any colour, white, brown, yellow, red, green (green??). But we do have a difficult condition and as I said, all persons who are of a group that may be suspect must become aware of their need to act accordingly. If I were in China and knew that the army/police were looking for a person who was tall, white, old, grey haired and bearded and spoke only English I'd be very careful to be non-reactive if police came on to me.

I hesitate to go on here, for I'm not sure you can comprehend what is happening considering how you've reacted to what I wrote. So I shall pause for now and see what grows from this.

I'm sorry to make Webgeek shake with anger - but we need to thrash this problem out worldwide and find a way to stop it. Censoring people won't do it. And I hope Jason gets my message clearly.

Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 12:11 PM said:

perhaps you did not undertand Jason's point:

Lines should not be drawn according to faith, but according to moral and political commitments, such as the opposition to violence and the promotion of peace and tolerance. In which case, the issue isn't what to do about Muslims, but what to do about those who promote a narrative of hatred and destruction, whether in the name of God or in the name of the State.

Jason Jul 26, 2005 12:33 PM said:

And Vicky, Jason, and Webgeek shoot me down but have absolutely no method of dealing with this world wide problem.

I don't think you read what I wrote. I specified a very particular responsibility on the part of the Muslim community to develop a collective ethic of introspection to prevent the sort of delusionary madness and psychology of hatred out of which Muslim terrorists arise. That is a truly formidable responsibility and, as far as I can see, the only viable, long-term solution to the threat of Muslim terrorism. At best, the police can prevent terrorist attacks. However, they are hardly in a position to prevent the very root of the problem, namely, a bigoted psychology that feeds on a violent interpretation of a very, very complicated religious tradition.

As a Muslim, I personally have little respect for the standard apologetic rhetoric of the Muslim communities toward the problem of terrorism. Declaring, in perfectly mindless, knee-jerk fashion, that, "Islam is a religion of peace," or that "Islam is against terrorism," is hollow and ineffective. I believe Muslims should move beyond apologetics to deal with the virus in their own communities. Moreover, I've tried to make it clear that there are Muslims who are indeed devoted to precisely that end. My point, however, is that the efforts of those Muslims are hampered by irresponsible generalizations about Islam and Muslims, to say nothing of the sort of inflammatory language that only feeds on the very bigotry and shortsightedness to which it is purportedly opposed.

You can deal with the threat of terrorism in one of two ways. You can make the problem worse by issuing indiscriminate, divisive, and offensive remarks, or you can identify real solutions being pursued by real human beings and help them realize the ultimate goal that hopefully most of us have in common, namely, a world without hatred, bigotry, fear, and violence.

Jason Jul 26, 2005 12:58 PM said:

My pharmacists family were Hindus before the Moslems forced them to change 200 years ago.

I obviously don't know your pharmacists, but if you're interested, Amartya Sen has recently published a book entitled The Argumentative Indian: Writings on Indian History, Culture and Identity (New York, NY: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2005). Sen is Lamont Professor of Economics and Philosophy at Harvard University and a Nobel Laureate, most famous for his work on development and hunger. He is also a singular authority on Indian culture and history. In his new book, Professor Sen, a Bengali Hindu, examines the culture of dialogue and pluralism that thrived in India for literally thousands of years prior to British imperialism. In particular, Sen has some especially pertinant remarks concerning the reign of the Muslim Mughuls, who ruled that anyone was free to choose his or her religion. For a Hindu witness to Muslim pluralism, that should perhaps count for at least something.

pinklitva Jul 26, 2005 01:05 PM said:

I think in the UK many are horrified by what has happened - both the shooting and the bombing. Hence my request for Miss Vicky's advice.

But we are all scared and nobody except Miss Vicky and Jason has actually addressed the real issue - how to deal with this plague of anger that has settled on our world.

I SHALL take a swig of brandy, thank you Miss Vicky and continue to get onto the Tube, train or bus and look at the person standing next to me - regardless of any characteristics - as just another bugger like me trying to get across London. And God/Allah/Yahweh/ Jehovah willing, I will get there.....but a bit tipsy perhaps because of Miss Vicky.

The Webgeek Jul 26, 2005 01:16 PM said:

I don't care if this site becomes a stupid bunch of short minded censors of my right to speak what is the truth.

Well, I'm not exactly sure say meandering, often incoherent, and callously simplistic statements could neccesarily be construed as "truth" per se, but thats just my oppinion.

This unfortunate religious mess which has grown out of Islam has not grown from white skinned people, except in the historical connection of the stupid crusades the Catholic Church chose to associate with.

Well, there's also that whole First World War/destruction of the Ottoman Empire, thing too. Not to mention some fairly aggressive
Imerialistic tendancies on the part of the British, French and Dutch prior to that. Also the Russian occupation of Afghanistan and some rather dubious US/CIA affiliations in the region.

It could be said that the entire Irish/British conflict could be boiled down to Henry the 8th wanting to ditch His first wife too, but that'd be a bit too simplistic, now wouldn't it?

Don't boil the current situation down to just religious zellotry. There's a big part of it involved, to be sure, but there are other far reaching elements involved. Many more than either of us understand, I'm sure.

Webgeek and any other who chooses to believe I'm suggesting attacking Moslems or all dark skinned people would be dead wrong.

I didn't say you were attacking "Moslems". I said you were ignorant and a borderline racist. Throwing around phrases like "dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be", "mainic Arabs" and "Hindus - if you can manage to tell the difference" isn't exactly making me think otherwise. There are different levels of racism, not all of which involve bigotry. Ignorance and passive intolerance is one of those levels. I'm sure your Muslim pharmasist would be overjoyed that you consider him a "friend of sorts".

But how do you identify the guilty here?

Try looking at more than "skin tone", for one.

And Vicky, Jason, and Webgeek shoot me down but have absolutely no method of dealing with this world wide problem.

Well, to the best of my ability, I can't see you putting forth any real solutions either, except to tell non-whites to expect a bit of an inconvienience and the occasional misplaced bullet in the cranium, but hey, what else are we supposed to do? There's "Arab maniacs" running around trying to kill us, aren't there?

I'd almost expect Webgeek to be dark skinned, he's made so much of a truthful comment.

No, I'm not. But I have several non-white family members. A few of whom are converted Muslims. It's given me a certain perspective.

If I were in China and knew that the army/police were looking for a person who was tall, white, old, grey haired and bearded and spoke only English I'd be very careful to be non-reactive if police came on to me.

So again why, exactly, would a Brazilian Christian on a work Visa expect to be mistaken for a British Born Muslim of Pakistani liniage (as the other bombers/suspects had been)? Oh, right. He has dark skin. That *must* make him a terrorist suspect.

And besides, you're not in China, and their not looking for a person of that description. So to sit here and be so blazé as to suggest that this poor fellow should have expected to get shot for dressing/acting the way he did is terribly insensitive.

That's what I find inexcusable from both you and Amckay. Both of you come here and bitch and moan about perscieved injusticed being foisted on your otherwise pleasant lives while being completely unable to understand why someone who doesn't happen to look anglo-saxon should expect to be treated as well as those of us who do. You both seem consitantly able to find, and only really see, how something might detrimentally affect your life, and disregard any other position. Amckay has specifically been angered by his perception of our "Christian intolerance" in the past while now feeling perfectly fine to just cast the net wide enough to suspect anyone who happens to be Muslim. You seem to want to cast the net further to include any amount of pigmentation. Nets, might I add, that neither of you happen to fall in. I can't stand this "well, whatever it takes to stop terrorism" bullshit that only serves to restrict freedom, promote ignorant. bigotry and, in the end, do noth to stop the root causes of terrorism.

Censoring people won't do it.
Well, you weren't censored. you were warned to smarten up. Besides, I see a difference between censorship and cleaning crap off my screen, but maybe that's just me.

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 01:48 PM said:

Well I did read you Jason, but admittedly appear to not have, to you. I agree your statement is a good one and true. But it doesnít end there.

You say ďAt best, the police can prevent terrorist attacks.Ē You know this is an almost impossible job. My complaint is the simple minded criticism of police who are doing what they can and under orders. That ďunder ordersĒ is a hard wall.

In truth, there is a weakness in how the police chased the Brazilian, for if heíd been a terrorist with a bomb he could set off instantly I would expect heíd have done it sooner - but not necessarily. He might be expected to get to a meaningful target before detonating it - thus the attempt to get on the train. The whole incident is sick but I canít agree with the simple criticism of the police action.

And now that Iíve read Jasonís two quotes Iíd have to say that heís very eloquently covered the scene.

As to my pharmacist, he was born in the shadow of Kilamanjaro, for the family had emmigrated to Africa some time before. He was educated in England and speaks 7 languages. A quite interesting fellow and very hard working building his business empire. How individuals view their ďconversionĒ is not for me to question without a lot of study - some possibility of which you suggest. But Iím told by other than his family that his mother, whoís visited and therefore has been observed, dresses in Saris and tends to present herself as a Hindu. Her son, my friend, tends to be a broad minded Moslem like Jason appears.

Now, as pinklitva points out, only Miss Vickyís suggestion of a shot of Brandy addressed her problem. That all comes down to the British stiff upper lip. Thereís really nothing any of us can do except carry on and pray that there is an afterlife and that God will straighten us out when weíre dead. Some believers say, ďNot one soul shall be lostĒ, and thatís a very hopeful thought. It means that even Hitler gets saved, and Saddam Hussein and others like him. Meanwhile we need world wide dialogue on the problem as Jason gets into.

Interestingly, while many people look at Astrology as meaningless, after studying the clock of the Zodiac for 40 years, and people, most importantly the people and how they fit in the clocks picture, Iíve found many curious things. Both Hitler and Saddam Hussein were born in Chinese years of the Ox, and Taurus in the Western Zodiac. A very hard personality. Iíll say no more for now on that.

In a way, Iím glad I stirred this pot of conflict. It has drawn some meaningful rap. Iím ready for more.

The Webgeek Jul 26, 2005 02:02 PM said:

Well, that's it. Threads Over.

We've been Godwin'ed.

amckay Jul 26, 2005 02:06 PM said:

Miss Vicky says we all lose something when we allow fear and hatred to win.

Yet the Webgeek says he wants to censor us all. Indeed, the terrorists have already won. And here I thought this place was a place to exchange ideas, when in fact it seems to be a place to preach to the converted and expell anyone who has ideas which differ from those of the folks running the site. Nothing short of shocking, really. And honestly makes me question whether I should ever come back here.

And Hugh, please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say the guilty parties won't be white. In fact, I pointed out that the big surprise was that some of them were home-grown, so they may well be white. Christian is what they won't be. Why should we waste time for the sake of political corectness searching anyone but muslims, when we already know apriori they won't be guilty? Pretty stupid if you ask me. But at the same time, that does not mean by a longshot we should just lock them all up, or search them all.

I also didn't say anything about "looking like a muslim". I said we know the culprits will be muslims, so it would just be plain stoopid to look elsewhere. Yup, that's profiling. And yup, that's going to lead to a hell of a problem for a lot of muslims if not done right. And apparantly a problem for some Christians, too, because somebody thought they knew "what a muslim looks like" (as if that were possible). What would webgeek suggest? Wasting a bunch of time searching a bunch of Christians or Jews or Hindus or Buddhists just for the sake of being politically correct? WHat idiocy! And FWIW, if it were a bunch of militant Catholics doing it in the name of CHristianity, I'd consider it equally stoopid to go around detaining muslims or jews or hindus or buddhists.

To not profile would be to not use the most efficient means to find the cuprits. Nowhere does that mean "arrest anyone who looks like a muslim". You are conveniently putting words into my mouth. But it does mean don't arrest anyone you know is not muslim - at least not until you have evidence or even a reasonable suspicion that non-muslims are doing this, too. If A then B does not mean if B then A. And please do not try to put words in my mouth with such a disgraceful twist of logic.

As for Hugh's statement dark skinned as the enemy is expected to be, I read that to be a condemnation of those in power. A condemnation of the current situation. His reading of what the powers-to-be seem to be thinking. In condemning Hugh you are shooting the messenger. At least that was my reading of it.

And your analogy to our earlier discussions falls seriously short. No, Christians should not be painted as a bunch of homophobes just because of the actions of some. And nowhere did I say that muslims should be painted as terrorists because of the actions of a few. But that's not the same as saying it's stoopid to look elsewhere other than muslims for our culprits. If A then B does not mean if B then A. Simple logic. Please do not twist it. We already know they will be muslims. What kind of moron would look elsewhere? That question is not meant to be rhetorical.

It's a very sticky situation, no doubt. Just reading the polarisation in this thread is evidence of that. Let's not let political correctness get in the way of getting to the bottom of this. I'm using very basic logic here and nothing but. There is no room emotion, hatred, bigotry - or political correctness - when it comes to solving these crimes.

accidental altruist Jul 26, 2005 02:10 PM said:

My ouchy wrist means i can't type much - and i don't care about the Godwin clause. ;-) so here's my two (make that 3) bits:

In Ottawa today, you can be pulled over for "driving while black".

In post 9/11 Vancouver you may not be allowed to "fly while brown".

WTF???!?!??!?!

"History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure." ~ Thurgood Marshall~

Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 02:28 PM said:

I was going to tell everyone to simmer down and wait a few hours before posting a response. And that includes the Webgeek.

amckay Jul 26, 2005 02:48 PM said:

What I'm saying boils down to precisely this : if I get mugged by a white male, then is it racial or sexual profiling if I eliminate all females, blacks and asians from the search for the culprit? Yes it is on both counts, but it would be sheer idiocy to do otherwise. "Racial profiling" does not equate to "racist". Nor is it necessarily the bad word it is being made out to be.

accidental altruist Jul 26, 2005 02:56 PM said:

if you were mugged by a white male then sure, that suspect is a white male - go-go gadget cop!

but, if as a result of this crime, you clutch your wallet in fear at the sight of every approaching white male - you are stepping over the line.

accidental altruist Jul 26, 2005 03:03 PM said:

heh heh - i just noticed: Vicky said "simmer down" and amckay followed right away with the word "boil". funny schtuff.

i'm feeling quite settled myself. off to the chiropractor with moi.

Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 03:03 PM said:

I'm not sure amckay completely understands what we mean by racial profiling.

Racial profiling, as defined by the Ontario Human Rights Commission:

"While many of the existing definitions of racial profiling, primarily originating in the United States, focus on law enforcement, the Ontario Human Rights Commission's Terms of Reference define racial profiling more broadly to include any action undertaken for reasons of safety, security or public protection that relies on stereotypes about race, colour, ethnicity, ancestry, religion, or place of origin rather than on reasonable suspicion, to single out an individual for greater scrutiny or different treatment. The Commission has noted that profiling can occur because of a combination of the above factors and that age and/or gender can influence the experience of profiling.

At the same time, the Commission has emphasized that racial profiling differs from criminal profiling which isn't based on stereotypes but rather relies on actual behaviour or on information about suspected activity by someone who meets the description of a specific individual. In other words, criminal profiling is not the same as racial profiling since the former is based on objective evidence of wrongful behaviour while racial profiling is based on stereotypical assumptions."
(my emphasis)

The CAIR-CAN study and the article I cited above demonstrate that racial profiling is being employed by security forces in Canada, and I would argue that what happened to the fellow in the tube was a result of racial, not criminal, profiling.

Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 03:04 PM said:

Good luck with that treatment, aa.... damned repetitive strain injuries!

amckay Jul 26, 2005 03:08 PM said:

Glad you posted that Miss Vicky, because it is now quite clear that limiting ones search to muslims is not in the least racial profiling if you know your culprits are muslim.

Of course, shooting that man on the subway was racial profiling because the police were working on an incorrect stereotype that muslims are dark-skinned.

Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 03:15 PM said:

It becomes racial profiling when all young Muslim men become a suspect simply because your suspects are Muslim. What's next - round 'em up and ship 'em off to camps?

Oh wait, we already tried that once, didn't we?

Western Boy Jul 26, 2005 03:16 PM said:

Wow! Some of the responses on this thread are proof that bigotry and racism are not exclusive to the west. Extremism, whether it be religious or political is something we as a society should condemn. I find it interesting that the response, in the U.S. and the U.K., to religious terrorism is state sponsored terrorism in the name of state security. This is exactly the situation that the suicide bombers are are trying to create. The suppression of political, civil and religious freedoms can only create resentment in those being oppressed leading to further marginalization and radicalization of the group ( insert your favourite minority here)leading to further reactionary violence. I realize that this is a very simplistic view, but it does speak to the fact that all of the London bombers where British citizens. For the most part groups that avocate the use of violence represent a small minority of the group to which they claim to speak for and in no way justifies the repression of the rest group. I agree with Webgeek that the use of racially based terms and references does nothing but inflame the already volitile situation and should be condemened outright. I caution however, that failing to recognize and acknowledge the colour of a persons skin, their ethnicity or religion is to deny that persons identity and is a pitfall of political correctness. That being said, racial profiling is just a poor excuse for lack of intelligent investigation on the part of the police and other "enforcement" officials. Yes the colour of a persons skin is part of their personal identity, but it in no way indicates their predilection for violence. The contention that all the terrorists involved in the bombings where, to quote a previous post, where " brown skinned" and that this therefore justifies the arrest and detainment of all people of the same skin tone is ludicrous. Please spare me the attempts to prove you are not racist by alluding to the fact that you have associations/friendships with minorities. The fact that you accept racial profiling as a legitimate method of policing speaks louder.

The Webgeek Jul 26, 2005 03:57 PM said:

***Post removed because it was no longer relevant
MIss Vicky Made the point for me. ***

Western Boy Jul 26, 2005 03:57 PM said:

I just had to jump in again due to the fact that my lack of typing ability prevented me from reading several comments. Thanks for the definitions Miss Vicky. If indeed the shooting of the Brazillian in Britain was not the result of racial profiling I don't know what. If it where part of normal police profiling the police they should have been also looking for a radical muslim who enjoys white water rafting as did the first four bombers. Normal police profiling" for the most part does not exist.
The Brazillian victim was not a muslim, did not have a life jacket nor was he carrying personal floatation device. " He was killed simply because of the colour of his skin.

Jason Jul 26, 2005 04:02 PM said:

Some believers say, ďNot one soul shall be lostĒ, and thatís a very hopeful thought. It means that even Hitler gets saved, and Saddam Hussein and others like him.

I'm not sure a theology that rewards Hitler and Saddam with entry into heaven is really all that appealing an alternative to a theology that rewards suicide bombers with 72 full-breasted virgins in heaven. In this, as in so much else, Christians and Muslims compete with one another to discredit religion altogether -- and with no modest amount of success, I might add.

Thereís really nothing any of us can do except carry on and pray that there is an afterlife and that God will straighten us out when weíre dead.

It might be argued that a sense of futility, resignation, and religious fatalism, of which the above remark is but acutely symptomatic, is part of the problem, not the solution. A theology that absolves human beings of the responsibility toward the imperatives of peace and justice would only seem to impair one's moral judgment rather than actually sharpening it. For my part, I'd rather do without theology in so far as it proves to be a hindrance to the twin commitments to peace and justice.

Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar Jul 26, 2005 04:10 PM said:

A rukus in Miss Vicky's parlor!

This ain't no public train station - it's Miss Vicky's private parlor. She's courteously invited us in for a wee visit and chat.

I do beleive that if the Lady of the house, or her minion-geek, wish to show any of us the door, rightly or wrongly, etiquette would oblige us to politely leave.

I, for one, am feeling less and less inlcined to partake in these discussions when people get hot under the collar and start tossing Hitler onto the floor.

Please ladies and gentleman, check your fascists at door and bite your tongues. Act like proper guests.

The Webgeek Jul 26, 2005 04:14 PM said:

Minion?

ouch.

that was cold.

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 04:19 PM said:

Having been out of touch for a while much has been added, not least Webgeek's item immediately following mine: The Webgeek said: "Well, that's it. Threads Over.

We've been Godwin'ed. "

Thanks for drawing my attention to the bit. But it's hardly cause for quitting. So what if you've been Godwined - as you put it? Sounds defeatist.

Now here's what I prepared following my last post and further thought. It'll take a while to get to all the new posts following Webgeeks. It seems to be really cooking!

Iím surprised that Webgeek stoops to ridicule and character assassination by raising such as my so-called meandering or simplistic approach. I didnít think it necessary to raise the whole history of the world. But maybe pinklitva should consider how the British Empire totally messed the middle East and how that now seems to be coming back at them. Small comfort when you wonder if youíre about to die tomorrow on your way to work for something you had nothing to do with and that terrorist bombers will never fix.

I would appreciate if Webgeek could quote what I have said that in his opinion is not true. And if my stories of explanation of my position on things is too much I must say that I find his excessiveness too much as well. I do not find people very deep, who criticize altogether too often the simple, but are overly driven by complicating what is often much simpler in fact. Itís like fixing something that isnít broken.

And if my character and intellectual depth is to be shot at here, then perhaps Webgeek, could try spell check to avoid some simple mistakes heís making in his anger and rush to pour vitriol on me - but heís not alone.

Oppinion = opinion; nonesense = nonsense; muslims = Muslims; etc.

In response to A McKayís paragraph beginning, ďUm, it's not racial profiling to only arrest muslims when you know it's muslims doing it. ď
Webgeek asks,
ďSo please explain to me how shooting a Brazilian Christian on a student Visa in the head 5 times is justifiable? ď

Itís justifiable because he was an illegal at the time, behaving as a terrorist might be expected to behave, and the police have dick all way of separating all of this in an instant. I donít think youíre a realist at all. The police donít have magic to help them. Donít we wish?

You raised the question of being told to stand away from your car by an officer who in his mind had reason to think there was something wrong and you were involved. Your reaction and expressed attitude is exactly wrong and sure to only complicate things. In 1963-4 I was living in Torontoís Cabbagetown and at about 2 AM was walking home from a Yorkville coffee house. Suddenly a police motorcycle drove up and stopped near me and the officer called out to me. ďSir, thereís been a robbery in the area and if you wouldnít mind Iíd like to search you to know if you are involved or notĒ. Since I was innocent I had no hesitation in saying yes and he got off his machine and checked my wallet and pockets efficiently and quickly, thanked me for my cooperation and drove off. No problem. As a sensible person it made sense to cooperate and get it over. I had nothing to fear for I had little money that was likely to be confused with a robbers take.

If you find my story too meandering - tough. It well explains my criticism of your attitude.

Just as I am, all of you, are subject to the possibility of being blown away at any future moment by some nut who thinks his terrorizing us to try and make us bow to their idea of Islam is actually going to work. There is no security system that can guarantee it wonít happen short of sealing ourselves in concrete bunkers - hardly sane or practical.

So I sympathize with pinklitva in wondering what to do. Weíre back to stiff upper lip and keep on keeping on.

I expect, by the time I get back to post this, that there will be more to comment on, but I weary of the hazard of us merely attacking each other over differing opinions. Perhaps Iíll keep with it if it continues. Perhaps Iíll just censor myself.


Hugh Jul 26, 2005 04:25 PM said:

To A McKay:
I've searched my documents as posted and I don't find where you say I said that you said:
guilty parties won't be white

I am thus lost for your comment.

Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 04:31 PM said:

Thanks, Sea Salt, for your reminder that this is, indeed, Miss Vicky's virtual space, and she does like to keep it civil and welcoming. As hotheaded as some people have become, I have not yet asked anyone to leave. But I'm getting there. Let's put an end to the spelling flames, the Hitler allusions, the overgeneralizations, the racism, the profanity and the personal attacks, shall we? Let's all try to make our points in the nicest possible way.

Now...who'd like more tea?

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 04:39 PM said:

Miss Vicky sure has quick easy reference to profiling.

"and I would argue that what happened to the fellow in the tube was a result of racial, not criminal, profiling."

How so? Though he wasn't a Moslem he basically fitted the description and was behaving in an irrational fear motivated by his crime of being an illegal at the time. Had he simply stopped and got down on the ground he would be alive if subject to deportation - a heck of a lot better I think. And, besides, in this Islamic war how is one to separate the criminal from the racist? Especially on a moments notice?

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 04:44 PM said:

Uh?

A McKay said:
"Of course, shooting that man on the subway was racial profiling because the police were working on an incorrect stereotype that muslims are dark-skinned."

Are you serious? I know there are some quiet light skinned Moslems, but most of those who the police are likely to be looking for are dark skinned. To eliminate this as a basic would be faulty police work I think. But it is a again a hard space in a moments notice.

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 04:53 PM said:

Wester Boy says,"The Brazillian victim was not a muslim, did not have a life jacket nor was he carrying personal floatation device. " He was killed simply because of the colour of his skin."

That is not true. There were a number of factors that made him a mark. Haven't you read the news?
And to repeat, they were not looking for whites, or Chinese etc. since they aren't the problem in general or this specific. The culprits may have been born in England but they are dark skinned Moslems, etc., and you can't escape that description.

Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 04:54 PM said:

Give it a rest, Hugh. Please. Why don't you take some time and read the links I posted above?

And please stop referring to "this Islamic war". That is an inaccurate way of describing the current global context, and as it has been pointed out by several posters in this thread, it is inflammatory and only serves to perpetuate stereotypes and bigotry.

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 05:01 PM said:

Jason said: ďFor my part, I'd rather do without theology in so far as it proves to be a hindrance to the twin commitments to peace and justice. ď. and I agree with the whole bit in that part of this ongoing discussion. Donít think that, just because I write or quote something like what youíre commenting on, that I wholly or partly or at all subscribe to it. Iím merely raising positions which are out there and thatís the horror of it. We have to deal with all the conflict it represents.

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 05:08 PM said:

Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar said: ďI, for one, am feeling less and less inlcined to partake in these discussions when people get hot under the collar and start tossing Hitler onto the floor.Ē

So who are you accusing of tossing Hitler on the floor and why should any historical disaster area be out of bounds? I only raised the comparison for the curiosity of it and the fact that it just might have some deeper meaning - if you bother to think about it.

Besides; Iíd rather toss Hitler in a boiling cauldron, but he already killed himself. He had so much faith in his sick crap that he kept cyanide handy. I trust you know about that?

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 05:13 PM said:

I forgot to say to Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar that if it's me he's calling hot under the collar he's dead wrong.

I'm sitting here cool as a cucumber just dealing with my feelings on what's getting said.

Seems to me Webgeek is hot under the collar and he sounds as dangerous as a terrorist. I don't think I want to get close.

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 05:16 PM said:

Miss Vicky says:
Now...who'd like more tea?
Make mine Twinings Earl Grey please!

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 05:27 PM said:

Miss Vicky says:

"And please stop referring to "this Islamic war".

Well it's not a Christian, nor atheist initiated war. It is Moslem/Islamic fanatics who bred this particular era. Don't you read all the news items with pictures of the Moslems and their signs calling for Jihad?

And as I've been working my way down the posts to get to here - which is the current end of them - I shall definitely go make some Earl Grey tea.

Thank you for your indulgence and tolerance Miss Vicky. I think it has been a stimulating and enlightening sequence.

Jason Jul 26, 2005 05:32 PM said:

Now...who'd like more tea?

Ah, yes. Green tea, please, with a touch of ginger and lemongrass.

The Webgeek Jul 26, 2005 05:38 PM said:

I would appreciate if Webgeek could quote what I have said that in his opinion is not true.

Ok,
He was dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be.
Wrong. Dark Skin != Terrorist. No way. No how. Ask the IRA and or Timothy McViegh.

Arab maniacs have created
Wrong. Muslims are all number of races. Not simply Arabs. I'm assuming, by "Arab Maniacs" you are reffering to these dreaded "Moslems" of yours.

We are at war with radical Islam
Wrong. There are certain Radical Islamic fundamentalists that want to destroy us, but we are not at war with anyone. We are cleaning up the mess that is Afghanistan. The US and Britain are at war with Iraq (all though not really. No formal declaration of war has been called.) . And, in the larger, vaguer sense,
the US "at war" with "terror". This apparently includes North Korea, and, recently, Chinese Communism.

A martyr is someone who dies doing good
Wrong. A martyr is one who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

those who the police are likely to be looking for are dark skinned. To eliminate this as a basic would be faulty police work I think.
Wrong. Going solely by that "basic fact" would have been, and obviously was, faulty police work. building a solid case and arresting actual suspects, thats good police work.

The culprits may have been born in England but they are dark skinned Moslems, etc., and you can't escape that description.
Wrong. You can escape that description. The culprits that blew themselves may have been dark skinned. Their accomplices could be any manner of description, really.

I could continue, but I'm tiring of this.

Miss Vicky Asked you to stop. I have asked you to stop.

Please stop.
(and I ran it through a spell check, just for you)

The Webgeek Jul 26, 2005 05:49 PM said:

Well it's not a Christian, nor atheist initiated war. It is Moslem/Islamic fanatics who bread this particular era.
Wrong. There are to many factors stretching too far back into history to chalk this down to a simple religious war.

Jason Jul 26, 2005 05:54 PM said:

Well it's not a Christian, nor atheist initiated war. It is Moslem/Islamic fanatics who bread this particular era. Don't you read all the news items with pictures of the Moslems and their signs calling for Jihad?

I don't think you appreciated the point about resorting to irresponsibly broad and indiscriminate language. To suggest that the terrorsts are engaged in an "Islamic war" is offensive to Muslims, the overwhelming majority of whom have nothing to do with terrorism. To refer to some entity or phenomenon as "Islamic" is to imply that it is rooted in some necessary property of Islam. To speak of an "Islamic war" is to suggest that the war is necessarily based on Islam. It is tantamout to asserting that the faith to which the world's 1.2 billion Muslims adhere is the ultimate cause of the London bombings.

If you meant merely to say that the London bombings were carried out by Muslims, that would have been perfectly accurate. However, to refer to those bombings and the larger phenomenon of which they were a part as "Islamic" is to far exceed the bounds of legitimate representation. It is irresponsible, thoughtless, and pitifully inaccurate. Islam can be accused of many things, misogyny and homophobia being among them. However, to accuse Islam of being the utlimate and necessary cause of the London bombings is intellectually bankrupt. Unless you are prepared to demonstrate a basic competence in Islamic law and theology and actually argue that terrorism has a genuine basis in the Islamic tradition, then you'll have to understand if your extreme language is dismissed for being little more than hotheaded and grossly uninformed patter.

accidental altruist Jul 26, 2005 05:57 PM said:

Hey Pinklitva

My advice? Have a decadent meal on a sunny patio & go out dancing with some grrrrl friends.

Buy something silly or strange for your office space to remind yourself that the world is really more absurd than evil.

Look up & down more often. You'll see lots of sights that make you smile. (read Dave's "July 10th" entry... heck, read the whole thing!)

Watch movies that you've already seen- but made you laugh till you snorted. Repeat.

And then a nice bottle of Bin 555 whilst singing along to Carolyn Mark. That woman knows how to live.

Western Boy Jul 26, 2005 06:37 PM said:

Hugh,
I realize that there were a large number of extenuating circumstances in this case including exiting from a suspect building, wearing a bulky coat, running away from police, jumping turnstiles etc. My point is that if he had been a caucasian male in the same circumstances there would have been no problem because he would not have even been stopped let alone chased.
Everything else is just an excuse for the police who, if they had done a proper job of investigating and identifying the suspected persons in the building would have known exactly who they were looking for. Instead a man is dead due to the overzealous application of a "shoot to Kill" policy inacted as a knee jerk response to the tragic events. As I stated in my previous post, this kind of reaction plays straight into the hands of the terrorists.




Flanders Jul 26, 2005 07:22 PM said:

Gee, miss work for a day and look what happens...

Webgeek made these points already but they're worth repeating:
1) Not all moslems are dark-skinned. Stop by the neighbourhood mosque and you'll see peoples of all hues, including caucasians, heading for prayers.

2) Radical Islam is truly radical. As has been noted widely (even on the West Wing!) Al-Qaeda is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity. The vast majority of humanity is revolted by terrorism, no matter the colour of the skin of the perpetrator (like, say good old white Christian Timothy McVeigh).

We had the bomb squad at the end of our street last night blowing up a suspicious package...and had to take a detour today when a police station was evacuated when "suspicious canisters" were discovered. How to deal with this all? Um...er...I suppose stiff upper lip for now, and be glad nobody I know has been directly affected, and keep speaking up against the madness, whatever form it takes.

Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 07:22 PM said:

Those are excellent suggestions, aa! Actually, having met both pinklitva AND Carolyn Mark, I can safely say that they would get along splendidly. They must have been separated at birth.

Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 07:24 PM said:

I heard that piece on the radio this morning, Flanders, and wondered what had gone down on your street. Any idea what the "suspicious canister" was?

amckay Jul 26, 2005 09:19 PM said:

Western Boy - you admit there are lots of other extenuating circumstances, but then suggest that the man was killed because of the colour of his skin. THat is a pretty serious oversimplification. Yes, it was likely a factor. But after 3 home-grown citizens bombed the transit on 7/7, I don't think anyone expects the culprits to be only dark-skinned. Things suddenly got a whole lot more complicated.

After 4 serious bombings and then 4 failed ones 2 weeks later, everyone is on edge - especially the police because they are the ones expected to put an end to this. That doesn't excuse what happened, but it does explain it. I am given to criticize police as well, but at the same time I have a great deal of respect for what they do, and for the danger they put themselves into ever day in order to protect us. They often have to make split-second decisions that are a matter of life-and-death, and where they are human, they sometimes make mistakes.

I honestly believe that even a white man would have been shot in those same circumstances - especially so after the 7/7 culprits were found to be home-grown.

Hugh Jul 26, 2005 11:04 PM said:

Yoikes! This will be my swan song for this whole affair. Thereís so much to respond to that Iíve simply copied everything from my last post on and will erase what seems less relevant to comment on - but itĎs huge IĎm sorry to say - but IĎm driven by the criticism of what IĎve said.

Itís quite obvious that Webgeek and I will likely never get along or agree on much but Ösuch is life. I also feel heís doing a good job of making what I say something I donít really mean. So too for Jason somewhat, but Ö. Onward!

What I said:
I would appreciate if Webgeek could quote what I have said that in his opinion is not true.

Ok,
He was dark skinned like the enemy is expected to be.
Wrong. Dark Skin != Terrorist. No way. No how. Ask the IRA and or Timothy McViegh.

It is you who chooses to re state what I said as Dark Skin = Terrorist. I didnít say that and I donít believe that. This discussion is not about Irish civil war or the idiot McVeigh. Itís about Radical Moslem/Islamists causing terror in England particularly. Now if you or anyone else in this forum think we are discussing other terrorists itís news to me. What is happening in England and may happen here. Thatís what the subject is. The source is Islam/Moslem and I havenít intended for anyone to think that all Moslems are guilty of this, but it is the Koran/Quran that these people quote and it is their religious schools which are giving them their ideas and belief, not Canadian schools, or Christian, or Jewish, or Hindu or atheist schools. How come so many Mosques have these radical Imams? What are Moslems doing to stop their incorrectness if they believe it is incorrect?

Arab maniacs have created
Wrong. Muslims are all number of races. Not simply Arabs. I'm assuming, by "Arab Maniacs" you are reffering to these dreaded "Moslems" of yours.

Me: Sorry but again you miss what I say. Osama is Arab. The base of Al Queada is Arab. Large numbers of the organizers are Arab, and I happen to believe they are maniacs. But not the only maniacs. Just too much a root problem. Wahabbism of course is a big root. King Saud who personally killed 18 people in the process of making himself King in 1902 was, as all his family, Wahabbi. Now the sect has split with the Royal family trying desperately to be something different in our eyes while Osama Bin Laden tries to convince everyone his way is the proper way. I believe they are all the wrong way. And none of these people are ďmy dreaded MoslemsĒ as you put it.

We are at war with radical Islam
Wrong. There are certain Radical Islamic fundamentalists that want to destroy us, but we are not at war with anyone. We are cleaning up the mess that is Afghanistan. The US and Britain are at war with Iraq (all though not really. No formal declaration of war has been called.) . And, in the larger, vaguer sense,
the US "at war" with "terror". This apparently includes North Korea, and, recently, Chinese Communism.

Me: How you can think weíre not at war with anyone baffles me. But then youíve been doing well at changing what I say. Frankly, as I see it, ALL RADICAL ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS WANT TO DESTROY US. The Moslem/Islamic people who are not radical are something else, and there may be some of them who want to destroy us, or maybe secretly all of them want to change us or destroy us, but I donĎt see them as necessarily a problem - but the radicals are all a problem.

A martyr is someone who dies doing good
Wrong. A martyr is one who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

And apparently in your definition itís OK to sneak around and murder people to be one. Sorry, but I donít buy that. Like I said, Jesus killed no one. He was a true martyr - but none of these Radical Moslems are. They are just murderers.

those who the police are likely to be looking for are dark skinned. To eliminate this as a basic would be faulty police work I think.
Wrong. Going solely by that "basic fact" would have been, and obviously was, faulty police work. building a solid case and arresting actual suspects, thats good police work.

I would hope that the police would work with all the facts they have at their disposal, but when you are trying to locate sneaks like these radicals whoís parents donít even know they are what they are, just exactly how do you expect the police to function. They were, in this particular case, doing all they knew how to do with the data they had and they wound up killing a Brazilian who wasnít being entirely honest, to say the least. I think your expectation of police is absurd and unreal. And I have been abused by our police because of neighbours who seem to me to be a lot like you, shallow in thought and not prepared to consider what I had put in front of them about housing but proved what I said when they called the police who beat upon me without understanding the reason or taking any more interest in the flyer detailing the root cause than the indifferent neighbours had.

The culprits may have been born in England but they are dark skinned Moslems, etc., and you can't escape that description.
Wrong. You can escape that description. The culprits that blew themselves may have been dark skinned. Their accomplices could be any manner of description, really.

Me: Well itís true that their masterminds might be white, but frankly I think this is a rather weak point and youíre just looking for something to put me down. Youíve become extremely tiresome in what you think is truth and understanding.

I could continue, but I'm tiring of this.

Me: Me too!

Miss Vicky Asked you to stop. I have asked you to stop.

Please stop.
(and I ran it through a spell check, just for you)

Me: Well, isnít that nice of you to run it on spell check. Frankly the only reason I havenít stopped is because you keep responding with trash twisting of what I say and adding aspects that are irrelevant. Like the Irish and McVeigh.

The Webgeek said: Jul 26, 2005 05:49 PM
Well it's not a Christian, nor atheist initiated war. It is Moslem/Islamic fanatics who bred this particular era.
Wrong. There are to many factors stretching too far back into history to chalk this down to a simple religious war.

Me: I disagree. It is fundamentalist radical Moslems who are pushing this on, and on, and on and they are the ones who are calling it Jihad, not me or us. And it sure isnít a simple war, not by any stretch of imagination.

Jason said: Jul 26, 2005 05:54 PM
Well it's not a Christian, nor atheist initiated war. It is Moslem/Islamic fanatics who bred this particular era. Don't you read all the news items with pictures of the Moslems and their signs calling for Jihad?

I don't think you appreciated the point about resorting to irresponsibly broad and indiscriminate language. To suggest that the terrorsts are engaged in an "Islamic war" is offensive to Muslims, the overwhelming majority of whom have nothing to do with terrorism. To refer to some entity or phenomenon as "Islamic" is to imply that it is rooted in some necessary property of Islam.

Me: Well if it isnít rooted in some property of Islam what is it rooted in? And if Moslems are offended they should do something about the radicals that are defaming them. Thatís the same as the Catholic Church which feels offended when they are criticized for the homosexuality & pedophilia, the torture and burnings of people, and the stupid Crusades that have been a part of their history, or any other aspect of their belief system which may be criticized. They offend me but who cares?

I am offended by the attitudes of the many who have come to Canada to ďbetter themselvesĒ but bring the poisonous baggage they should have left behind. I donít appreciate Moslems trying to change our ways and suggest that their religion is better and that we must bow to it or die - as the radicals would have it and just possibly all Moslems, for that seems to be a tenet of that faith.

To speak of an "Islamic war" is to suggest that the war is necessarily based on Islam. It is tantamout to asserting that the faith to which the world's 1.2 billion Muslims adhere is the ultimate cause of the London bombings.

Me: Judging from what the radicals say it may be that Islam is the ultimate cause of the London bombings, at least in a more direct way than Christianity is or atheism or being American or European.

If you meant merely to say that the London bombings were carried out by Muslims, that would have been perfectly accurate. However, to refer to those bombings and the larger phenomenon of which they were a part as "Islamic" is to far exceed the bounds of legitimate representation.

Me: Well I think you should have understood that the reference is to their being Moslem - though I think they are bad Moslems relative to what most Moslems claim to believe and profess. But I do find Islam and the Koran to be very vicious. Sharia law disgusts me. And the Old and New testaments are full of things that I find disgusting and off the course of peace. But then, who cares what I think? One thing I think is that Iím having to write too much to try and get it all back on course to simplicity and sensibility.

It is irresponsible, thoughtless, and pitifully inaccurate. Islam can be accused of many things, misogyny and homophobia being among them. However, to accuse Islam of being the utlimate and necessary cause of the London bombings is intellectually bankrupt.

Me: Are you able to define an ultimate and necessary cause of the London bombings or any of the terrorist bombings that are going on elsewhere? Do you have a method and way of stopping it? We are writing a lot but solving nothing. Just telling me Iím pitifully inaccurate is worth nothing for I donĎt think you are so accurate either. But what good is this tossing a ball back and forth?

Unless you are prepared to demonstrate a basic competence in Islamic law and theology and actually argue that terrorism has a genuine basis in the Islamic tradition, then you'll have to understand if your extreme language is dismissed for being little more than hotheaded and grossly uninformed patter.

Me: I think everything in all of the posts from the beginning of this whole discussion is worthy of being dismissed as meaningless in the greater picture.

We are nothing to the solution it seems.----------------


Western Boy said: Jul 26, 2005 06:37 PM
Hugh,
I realize that there were a large number of extenuating circumstances in this case including exiting from a suspect building, wearing a bulky coat, running away from police, jumping turnstiles etc. My point is that if he had been a caucasian male in the same circumstances there would have been no problem because he would not have even been stopped let alone chased.

Me: Well it makes sense that a Caucasian wouldnít be chased for thereís little to suggest that Caucasians are the problem. To try and imagine what would be the case if it were a different case gets us nothing. It is what it is, not something else, and it is being dealt with piece meal as we go. Those who are in the fray have no other way.

Everything else is just an excuse for the police who, if they had done a proper job of investigating and identifying the suspected persons in the building would have known exactly who they were looking for.

ME: You donít seem to appreciate the limited time factors involved and the difficulty of identifying all that goes on in a building without giving away the operations intent. The police arenít magic and in this case didnít have a long time factor to have learned more. And to repeat: The Brazilian was in a bad fault position and is a sad mistake, but I can understand completely why it happened. Sure, itís frightening to think it might happen to you but it wonít necessarily in similar situations if your not being dishonest and doing irrational things as that poor man was. His stupid choice led to his death.

Instead a man is dead due to the overzealous application of a "shoot to Kill" policy inacted as a knee jerk response to the tragic events. As I stated in my previous post, this kind of reaction plays straight into the hands of the terrorists.

Me: The only way it plays into the hands of the terrorists is in the way people like you insist on interpreting it. Itís you who are making the fault. Not the terrorists hands. Itís people wanting to blame the police for bad work. You go find the terrorists for them if you know so much and how.


Flanders said: Jul 26, 2005 07:22 PM
Gee, miss work for a day and look what happens...

Webgeek made these points already but they're worth repeating:
1) Not all moslems are dark-skinned. Stop by the neighbourhood mosque and you'll see peoples of all hues, including caucasians, heading for prayers.

Me: And again; but most of those who are being the problem appear to be dark skinned, but I donít intend that it should be so limited in consideration. It just happens to be the likelihood in this particular situation. Other situations - like in American Mosques or Canadian Mosques may be different. Do you have any idea of who among you will be the first to kill a Canadian over the issue? In fact, the Moslem I earlier referred to as being one I helped in getting his Canadian Citizenship could well be a radical getting ready for a kill. I have no way of knowing. He is certainly a very strict fellow with his wife and kids. A bit too so in my view of what life should be. And the face he gave me when I took a picture of him is - well - almost what Iíd expect of a terrorist. But I liked him in a day to day general way. Iíd hate to find he is a maniac.

2) Radical Islam is truly radical. As has been noted widely (even on the West Wing!) Al-Qaeda is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity. The vast majority of humanity is revolted by terrorism, no matter the colour of the skin of the perpetrator (like, say good old white Christian Timothy McVeigh).

Me: Well, again, I think mentioning a different situation is off course here. But McVeigh was a crazy anti-government American who likely wouldnít accept any government - it seems good that heís dead. And I donít watch TV - to me itís just nerve jerking poison.

We had the bomb squad at the end of our street last night blowing up a suspicious package...and had to take a detour today when a police station was evacuated when "suspicious canisters" were discovered. How to deal with this all? Um...er...I suppose stiff upper lip for now, and be glad nobody I know has been directly affected, and keep speaking up against the madness, whatever form it takes.

Me: This is one of the real sadnesses of what is happening. Everyone begins to see bombs everywhere and life becomes a stiff pain going nowhere but down..

Miss Vicky said: Jul 26, 2005 07:24 PM
I heard that piece on the radio this morning, Flanders, and wondered what had gone down on your street. Any idea what the "suspicious canister" was? Me: I believe it was a cement form about the size of a coffee can in diameter if I heard the news correctly. I suppose all beer cans will now look like bombs. Grief!

Iím finally going to sign off this whole affair. It bothers me that so many things can be so twisted out of their space, but that is how it is.

I quite appreciate Jasonís writings here as a Moslem of some sorts - he did imply that heís not too deep into it - and fear that I left him feeling hurt for my failing to write many more words to explain than I thought would be needed. It is obviously too easy to misread between the lines.

But to Webgeek and in a lesser amount to Miss Vicky, Iím surprised that you would say stop.

To the terrorists I say stop, but do they care?


Miss Vicky Jul 26, 2005 11:18 PM said:

Hugh, I've been polite, and I've asked you to stop repeating your racist and intolerant comments. The more you write, the worse it gets. There's no point in engaging; you'll just keep digging yourself in further.

I have no particular desire to censor, but I really don't want to be identified with the attitude you profess. So please, leave this thread be.

Jason Jul 27, 2005 12:00 AM said:

I quite appreciate Jasonís writings here as a Moslem of some sorts - he did imply that heís not too deep into it - and fear that I left him feeling hurt for my failing to write many more words to explain than I thought would be needed. It is obviously too easy to misread between the lines.

Hugh, the only thing you hurt was your moral and intellectual credibility. If you'd like to continue this discussion, feel free to email me at narrativity@hotmail.com. I will have to respect Miss Vicky's wishes and desist from continuing the discussion here.

Time for the Daily Show :-)

accidental altruist Jul 27, 2005 12:05 AM said:

i..... uh..... ooooOOooOOoooo yeah. if this were a cocktail party (and i wish it were) some of us would be slipping away to the kitchen to freshen our drinks. or beating a path to the canapes.

how's that Bin 555 goin' down Pinklitva?

Miss Vicky Jul 27, 2005 12:08 AM said:

Well, I'm happy to mix a Manhattan for anyone who's interested. Screw the tea.

pinklitva Jul 27, 2005 01:13 AM said:

I am afraid Accidental Altruist, that all the OVERT AGGRESSION would have me beating a path to the G & Ts and perhaps employing the use of irony in order to desperately alter the tone.....

I cannot cope with all this testosteronic postering.....the bombs are bad enough.

sigh.
Cricket anyone?

pinklitva Jul 27, 2005 01:14 AM said:

Oh, and my deepest apologies Miss Vicky for clearly opening a Hornet's Nest.
xxx

amckay Jul 27, 2005 07:33 AM said:

While I think Hugh's conclusions may be going a bit far, I do think his line of questioning is completely within the realm of civility : is there something in Islam that these people feel justifies their actions? Or is there something which arguably is telling them to do this?

And just as I as a Christian have to answer for those who use Christianity to justify homophobia and worse, I think that the Muslim community at large has to answer for the people who twist Islam in this fashion. Just as it falls upon me to show where the homophobic Christians have twisted my faith, it falls upon the vast majority of peace-loving Muslims to show where these lunatics have twisted their faith. It is afterall in my own best-interest to clear things up. And peace-loving Muslims should have an easier job than I since it seems that an awful lot of Christians are homophobes, where as much smaller percentage of Muslims are misguided in this way.

Calling someone a racist and dismissing them is too easy. There are some very important questions here that need to be asked, and need especially to be asked and answered by peace-loving Muslims. Unfortunately I have never read more than a few pages of the Koran, so I cannot comment as to whether or not there is something there that these people could actually be using to justify their actions. But I do think it would be interesting to witness an intelluctual discussion of the matter which quoted chapter-and-verse.

amckay Jul 27, 2005 07:40 AM said:

BTW, interestingly enough, I started a similar discussion in another forum, and a friend of mine related his experience with profiling based on a recent trip to the US, as well as earlier trips to the UK. He is as white as it gets, but as a devout and very peace-loving Buddhist he's got a shaved head. As a martial-artist he is also in darned good shape. His father happens to be an ex-military terrorist expert and tells him that regardless of race, he fits "the profile" to the T. He got strip-searched on a recent trip to the US, and has had similar experiences in the UK

Miss Vicky Jul 27, 2005 08:45 AM said:

Alan? Are you not getting that I'd really like to let this thread rest? Is it so important for you to have the last word?

The Webgeek Jul 27, 2005 11:09 AM said:

I'm sorry, Miss Vicky, but I can't leave this little "nugget" lie:
And just as I as a Christian have to answer for those who use Christianity to justify homophobia and worse, I think that the Muslim community at large has to answer for the people who twist Islam in this fashion.

No, and No.
No one assumes that you , as a Christian, are going to run off to some Branch Davidian like complex. Nor do we automatically assume your planning on blowing up abortion clinics. Nor would anyone ever ask you to attone, genuflect, or appologize for the lunacy of those that do. And, yes, while, I did you and I did "verbally spar" on certain, (in my opinion) latently desriminatory practices being promoted by many members of the Roman Catholic Church, I in no way assumed you were anywhere near as insane as these morons. And, might I add, only had that conversation with you because you brought it upon yourself to come in here and be the self appointed "defender of Christian faith", despite there being no attacks on that faith being made.

Christians, in North America, are not automatiaclly assumed to be terrorists. They do not automatically get searched at airportsd and have to give fingerprints at the US border. They do not automatically end up on Police watchlists. They are not shipped off to Seria because of some tenious link to someone they may or may not have rented a room to once, several years ago. And Christians who do hold unpopular views (not even the really scary wingnut ones), by and large, aren't threatened with deportation without due cause or proccess.

Many Muslim are.

Why should mostly secular, law-biding, citizens that happen to follow a religion that's not deemed "mainstream" in this country (though widely followed in several other parts of the world) have to answer for winguts half a world away? Why should they have to endure demeaning, racist actions by authorities and ill informed yahoos? Why should they have to live with the stigma of being labelled terrorist for no other reason than happening to follow a religion that a handfull assholes are grossly misenterpretting to fit their hate-filled view of the world?

And, to answer one more thing you said.
you admit there are lots of other extenuating circumstances, but then suggest that the man was killed because of the colour of his skin. THat is a pretty serious oversimplification.

It is fairly easy to assume it was because of the colour of his skin because the initial descriptions of the guy they put out were "a man of Asian looking appearance who blah, blah blah". "Asian" in this case meaning Pakistani (who, by and large ARE Asian, not Arab).

To put it plainly here Amckay. Yes, most likely the people they are looking for are Muslim, and quite possibly of middle eastern descent. But there are far, FAR too many people to fit that particular description, so lets start finding other aspects, besides these two extremely crude indicators, of the "most likely profile" before running out and gunning down innoccent people "just in case".
As far as I know, the British police did not go around shooting random redheads who "might be Roman Catholic" in the back of the skull when the IRA was bombing London. Why should it be "unfortunate but understandable" that they now be shooting random dark skinned people who "might be Muslim" in the head? Especially when they guy the got wasn't neither middle eastern or Muslim. He just "looked it". Maybe. From a distance.

Miss Vicky Jul 27, 2005 11:27 AM said:

Enough already!

The Webgeek Jul 27, 2005 12:09 PM said:

Sorry.

You're right. I should have left well enough alone.

I've just added the ability to turn off comments in threads now.

Use as you see fit dear.

Miss Vicky Jul 27, 2005 12:13 PM said:

Thank you.

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