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Today's TV Parable

Wed Feb 2, 2005 Miss Vicky 

You know that commercial for McCain Triple Chill ice cream cakes, where the big sister is doling out portions of the yummy snack to visiting friends and (much to her frustration) her little brother? She gives nice big slices of ice-creamy goodness to her two buddies, but a tiny little crumb to the bro?

(Let's put aside, for the time being, how Miss Vicky behaved toward her little brother. Although I would like to say I was always committed to sharing everything with my smaller siblings, I do know my mother reads this forum and may be moved to tell you otherwise. And we wouldn't want to shatter your image of Miss Vicky's finer qualities, would we?)

Anyway, I was reminded of that commercial by the coverage of the campaign to oppose the new same-sex marriage legislation. Sure, they say, we’re not opposed to same-sex couples making life-time commitments to each other. Just don’t call it marriage. The old “we’re all equal, but some of us are more equal than others” argument.

So if the Conservatives get their way, gays and lesbians would be handed the token crumb - a civil union - to make them think they’re getting the same slice of cake the rest of us get. Of course, in the commercial, the big sister (prompted by the semi-scolding voice-over) grudgingly hands over a big slice to match the others. She may not have liked it - heck, she may have even lost some face in front of her giggling, privileged, cake-eating pals - but she did it anyway. Because it was the just and fair thing to do. And it’s not like she had to take any of the ice cream away from her friends who already had some ... there was plenty to go around, right?

So, everyone...now it’s our turn to play the part of the voice-over. Because our government is faced with a choice - an equal slice of rights, or a tiny morsel?

Opponents of equal marriage are mobilizing, capitalizing on fear, intolerance and ignorance about what this legislation would actually mean. Canadians who value equality need to mobilize too. We need to write, phone, fax and visit our members of parliament and tell them how we feel.

Be the voice-over. Let your MP know you want our government to make sure everyone gets a big slice of cake. Even our littlest brothers and sisters.

Some people were moved to reply

Flanders Feb 2, 2005 09:20 PM said:

Indeed, the Supreme Court has already been a voice-over, telling the bratty kid that refusing to share equally violates the constitution...

Notwithstanding all that, I always hated those cakes. Ick.

Miss Vicky Feb 3, 2005 04:46 PM said:

I hate those cakes as well, but work with me, Flanders! It's a parable! At least I stopped short of linking to the McCain site. I suppose I could have opted for the one where the Dad is trying to teach his kid "the new math" by stealing his french fries. They are trans-fat-free, right? But it didn't work quite as well.

Clearly the Supreme Court voice-over wasn't quite enough, since their ruling included the "Ask your mother" caveat and scolded the Martin government for trying to foist a difficult political issue on to them. And the smug friends are still trying to put pressure on the big sister to leave the bro with the crumbs.

What's really annoying is that there is plenty of other stuff the government could be debating right now (especially as we head toward budget time). I think the reason a lot of equal marriage supporters aren't bothering to pick up their phones and call their MPs is the assumption that the supreme court ruling is enough.

Those of us who believe in the Charter and the principle that the majority cannot be counted on to protect minority rights can't take it for granted that this government will do the right thing. Equal marriage may divide the caucus now, but whose rights are going to be next?

The Webgeek Feb 3, 2005 05:10 PM said:

To continue the "McCain cake ad" metaphor, I think the real issue is that most of the opponents of same sex marriage aren't watching the same ad we are.

They're watching that old-school McCain ad with the dad sneaking downstairs in the middle of the night for an extra piece. They're really afraid of giving more to same sex couples than they get themselves. They see this, most likely, as same sex couples getting "yet another" piece of "our" cake. And of course, what happens at the end of the old school ad? Dad get's five feet from the fridge before turning around for another piece.

This is of course, stupid. But it does seem to be at the crux of the situation, and their complaints. Steven Harper pretty much even said so with his "gay mariage opens the door to poligamy" excuse. (nevermind that most poligamists are pretty hard-core religious traditionalists anyway )

The real issue here, though these opponents will vigorously deny it, is they don't want same sex couples to have any cake at all. They really don't think they deserve it. Any cake they give away is, in their mind, cake they don't get to have later.

They want to be the dad with the nocternal cravings, and are afraid their won't be as much cake left for them.

Perhaps, we should amend the parable to combine it with the "Jesus handing loaves and fish" parable. I mean, no matter how much he gave out, there was always more loaves and fish.

In a way, its the same way with McCain's cakes. As Flanders and Miss Vicky pointed out. They're really not all they're cracked up to be. Once you get one, you can't seem to give it away fast enough. Just because we're offering equal marriage rights to same sex couples doesn't mean they all want a piece of that particular cake. Besides, mom always has another one in the freezer anyway. Plenty to go around.

So, lets "let them eat cake". All of them.

Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar Feb 3, 2005 06:55 PM said:

where do i go?

"have my cake and eat it too"?

"I want to be the girl with the most cake"?

Or maybe the metaphor should just die.

I've been mostly keeping my mouth shut to avoid inflaming the traditionalists who fear their own hetero marriages will be irreversibly harmed.

But the truth is i secretly (and gleefully) agree with them - this redefinition of marriage thingy will alter the old institution. My own hetero marriage will be redefined by this legislation because, when you remove gender from marriage you remove gender roles too.

When a marriage can have two wives or two husbands, then the marriage roles of wives and husbands gets all screwed up.

Yay.

Gay and lesbian couples who want to enter marriage bondage get their cake, but the liberated straights get the icing.

Miss Vicky Feb 3, 2005 08:18 PM said:

I suppose that is the fear that many opponents have, and I agree, that shift is not necessarily a bad thing. But why would it effect the particular roles you and your spouse have identified for your relationship? Gay or straight, couples sort out the division of labour, household tasks, relationship and parental roles in a way that suits their personalities and their relationship. "Husband" and "Wife" began to lose their respective connotations long before (heterosexual) society came to recognize that committed relationships can exist between two people of the same gender. And all sorts of things have contributed to this.... The problem in many relationships is a lack of agreement on what each spouse's role should be.

At least, in my observation. I could just be talking out of my boa, unmarried gal that I am.

(look, a whole response without a cake metaphor!)

The Webgeek Feb 3, 2005 08:33 PM said:

Avoiding the metaphor isn't a big deal...

I'd personally be impressed if you could metaphor-ize the old Rocket Richard/Grecian Formula "Two minutes for looking so good" ad into this conversation.

Gulley Jimson Feb 4, 2005 12:14 AM said:

What's the big deal here? With married people the sex is always the same. And if gays really want to be part of that deadly institution then I suppose they should get their rightful slice of cake. But really, I expected better of them! What's the world coming to? Next thing they will want to be notaries and accountants! Where are the Pet Shop Boys when we need them?

amckay May 23, 2005 10:37 AM said:

I will preface my comments on the matter by pointing out that I'm a practising Christian who takes his kids to church just about every week, am an elected member of Church Council, and active in other church committees as well. While I don't agree with a whole lot of what my church teaches on social issues like this (because I feel they are in direct contradiction to Jesus' first teaching - "love your neighbour like yourself"), I try very hard to understand all sides of every issue, and to listen to the concerns of my fellow parishiners, as well as those on the other side of the issue.

The problem as I see is is not the least bit that opponents simply don't want GLBs to have a piece of the same cake. THe problem is that nobody is listening to the other side, and comments in this thread make that readily apparant since they demonstrate little to no understanding of the concerns of the other side.

I recently sat through a council meeting where one member got a bit out of hand with his comments, and I was very pleased to hear our Priest cut him off and admonish him with "Look! We're not gay-bashing here! We just happen to believe that these people are doing something immoral, and we want nothing to do with it". And there is the crux of the situation which I think the vast majority of the "pro" side fail to see. The pros are often heard extolling the importance of respecting the rights of others, but that importance seems to diminish very quickly when it comes to them respecing the rights of in particular religious people to follow their religion and want nothing to do with same-sex marriage. Regardless of how ridiculous a position it may appear to be, we are all human beings and we all have the inherent right to believe what we believe, and not have another set of beliefs shoved down our throats. (Check Article 18 if you don't believe me)

And before you start going off about nobody is shoving anything down anyone's throat, let me go on to tell you a bit more about where the real concerns lie. Notwithstanding the small percentage of gay-bashers which in my experience are about the same percentage as gay-bashers in the general populace, what religious people honestly fear is that this will lead to them being made to do something they believe - rightly or wrongly - is morally wrong. And I don't see many people on the "pro" side respecting their beliefs. As much as pros swear up-and-down their beliefs will be respected, one has only to cite a few examples. e.g. The case where the Knights of Columbus were forced to rent their hall for the reception of a gay wedding. From their website "The Knights of Columbus is a Catholic men's fraternal benefit society that was formed to render financial aid to members and their families.". Where is freedom of religious conviction in that decision? I also hear cited the case where a Catholic School in Ontario was forced to allow a student to bring a gay partner to a school dance (prom?). In this case IMO since the schools are funded nearly 100% by the province, religious conviction must take a back seat to that fact, and the decision was right. Had it been a private Catholic School, however, the decision would have been wrong. The Knights of Columbus decision was clearly wrong, however, and should rightly be seen by religious people as a real affront to their beliefs. For the record while I would not agree with my church disallowing the use of our hall for similar purposes, I would fight tooth-and-nail for their right to hold that view.

Another interesting notion which came up in a recent meeting of our Church Council, was a letter from a LIberal Member of Parliament whose name escapes me, but who says he will be voting against the legislation. Now, I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but the thrust of this letter was that the so-called protections for religious groups in this legislation are entirely in the preamble, and that there is a list as long as my arm of other laws whose preambles are essentially ignored when it comes to interpreting the law. Again, I have no idea what that means or if it's even true, but if it is true, it is a huge concern and IMO completely validates the concerns of religious groups. Especially in view of aforementioned examples.

One final point on the idea of not allowing the tyranny of the majority to over-ride the rights of a minority. I've been known to argue this very point and to further maintain that protections for minorities is a hallmark of a strong democracy, and that we cannot allow legislation to over-rule rights guaranteed in our bill of rights. It was pointed out to me recently in this context - and it is a strong argument - that this is precisely what our current employment-equity legislation does. I as a white male am a minority, yet we have legislation which suppresses my rights . If we allow this, how can we then turn around and tell opponents of SSM that legislating against same-sex marriage is not an option because the supreme court decision is final? That IMO is very hippocritical as at face-value the two situations are essentially identical.

In closing I will repeat what I see as the real problem here - nobody is listening to the other side. There are some very real concerns here for religious people, and it would be a real human-rights tragedy if they were not addresses.

The Webgeek May 24, 2005 10:32 AM said:

Amkay, respectfully, I do listen to the other side. But when push comes to shove they (and you) pretty much boil your argument down to one thing. You did it by the fourth paragraph -- sorry, third paragraph, I just re-read your comment.

We just happen to believe that these people are doing something immoral, and we want nothing to do with it

To be fair, you were paraphrasing your priest, but you really didn't refute the sentiment. You thow this in as if homosexuality is a choice. Its not. Its who they are. Plain and simple. Though some do try, they can't repress or ignore this anymore than you or I can repress or ignore our heterosexuality. And, wheter you think so or not, they are being discriminated against by people who choose not to believe this simple fact. You can try and back peddle and double-speak all you want after that, but deep down, you really believe thet they are sinners and, as such, don't deserve equal treatment.

Not only that, you go on to pull out the ultimate in lame duck arguments:

I as a white male am a minority, yet we have legislation which suppresses my rights

As a white, hetrosexual male, let me point out to you that this is complete and utter bullshit. "We" are *NOT* having our rights suppressed. "We", for centuries, pretty much did the suppression. "We" had all the rights. "We" are now seing other non-whites, non-males, and non-heteros demanding the same level of equality in society that "We" have had the privledge to enjoy. "We" aren't losing anything -- "We" only have to share it with others. "We" never had to fight for the right to vote -- let alone fight to be recognised as people. "We" never got herded off to conscentration camps or reserves simply because we were born white. "We" never had to live with the fear that admitting our sexuallity was going to get us ostrasized by our family and possibly even beaten and/or killed by complete strangers.

Any percieved "suppression of rights" you feel is happening to you is NOTHING -- NOTHING!! -- compared to the belittling attitudes and desrimination non-white males face in one form or another every day.

Yes, sometimes a white guy might not get a job, or get turned down for a promotion, or overlooked due to other considerations. That's not suppression. That's competition. And, yes, every once and a while, a legal descision does come down that isn't in our favour. That's life. When it happens, "We" should suck it up and stop crying "descrimination"; because more often than not, "We" get it pretty damned easy. Lets face it, when's the last time a white guy got called a whore in the media for making a politically astute career move? When's the last time anyone automatically assumed a "quota" was being filled when "We" lose a job to another white guy? If "We" descide to marry the person we love, my dear amckay, do busloads of people show up at provincial and federal legislatures to try and stop it?

In short; don't bitch about your rights being violated when you're trying to argue that some "other" minority shouldn't have access to the same
rights as you. It smacks of hypocracy.

amckay May 24, 2005 11:00 AM said:

Like I said, I don't agree with someone who wants nothing to do with GLBs because of their religious belief, but I do support the idea that their belief is theirs and theirs alone, and they have every right to hold it however misguided it may be. Article 18 of the Declaration of Human Rights guarantees this right. If we start picking-and-choosing who gets those rights and who does not, we are just as bad as the misguided people who want nothing to do with GLBs because they feel they are doing something immoral. Period.

And yes, I know people don't choose their sexual preference. Many of my closest friends are GLB. But you will have a tough time convincing some religious people of this. As I first learned in my Philosophy of Religion class way back in 1987 or so, religious people live in a very different world than non religious people, and I say that in a real concrete fashion, not at all metaphorically. This is the world they choose to live in, and it is their right to do so if they choose. See referenced link for details. What I seem to be hearing is that Article 18 is irrelavent, and that we should be forcing our "enlightenment" down their throats. As much as I disagree with what these people are doing, I have to stop short at denying them their right to believe what they believe.

Freedom of thought is freedom of thought. Freedom of religion is freedom of religion. Period.

As for my rights as a white male, if I see a job that is not open to me because I am a white male, I am being discriminated against in a very real sense. You will not convince me otherwise. Now, it just so happens that I agree with this discrimination to the largest extent because as you point out the tables were turned for so long that things are very seriously out-of-balance, and this legislation is required to set the balance straight. Though I do think it is the sort of legislation which should have automatically timed out like invocation of the notwithstanding clause, or some such. Because one would hope that we'd some day be to the point where this legislation is not required, and that I as a white male will no longer see jobs closed to me because of something I have no control over.

The point remains that this is something that those against SSM can hold up as an example of legislation which infringes on the rights of some in order to advance the rights of others. The point remains that it is difficult to tell someone "sorry, but it's not right to legislate-away someone's rights" when it already happens.

amckay May 24, 2005 11:18 AM said:

BTW, I will also point out that for many of the religious people I know, their religion is not a choice. It is who they are. Sound familiar?

No, I'm not being trite. I'm just underscoring the fact that religious people live in a very different world than non-religious people, and it's one of those things that you just have to accept in order to understand them.

The bottom line here is that we have 2 groups who may never agree on the matter. Or if they do, it will be a long time in coming. So the two groups simply have to learn to live together and it sure cannot hurt to spend some time learning a bit about the other side.

I'll end this off with a postfix to go with my initial prefix. I came very, very close to leaving my church because of this issue. It caused me a great deal of pain and in the end I decided I was damned well staying because (1) I'm Christian and I should not have to leave the church I was born into; and (2) the whole problem as I see it is that people just aren't trying to understand each other, and as much as it hurts me sometimes to stay, if I stay and try hard to listen, I just may in some way be able to help bridge the gap between the two sides. I'm apparantly failing at doing that, unfortunately :-(

EDIT : one final thing is that in staying and listening, I am finding that they have some very real/valid concerns. As I tried to outline above. Not the least of which being they feel their freedom of religion is under very real threat. And some of the comments here seem to justify that fear.

The Webgeek May 24, 2005 12:03 PM said:

What I seem to be hearing is that Article 18 is irrelavent, and that we should be forcing our "enlightenment" down their throats. As much as I disagree with what these people are doing, I have to stop short at denying them their right to believe what they believe.

Alright, if you don't want "enlightenment" forced down people's throats, then why do you think the KofC was right to attempt to deny a same-sex couple from renting their hall for a marriage? Would it be OK to deny non-Christians from renting the hall for a marriage? Would it be OK to deny a same-sex couple from renting their hall for non-mariage related activities? Would it be OK for an Athiest organization to deny a Christian couple from renting their hall for their marriage? What of the pharamsists in the States who refused to sell birth control pills to women, because they disagree with its use on religious grounds? Is that OK by you?

What about the fight the Legion put forward a few years back to try and force Sikh veterans to remove their turbans when entering, since they viewed a covered head indoors as a sign of disrespect? Is the legion's belief system being unfairly disrespected? Or the fight to disallow Sikh RCMP officers to wear turbins on the job -- after all it wasn't part of the uniform, was it? Was that OK?

If I own a bar, it's illegal to refuse anyone entry to a bar based on race, religion or sexual orientation -- regardless of my personal beliefs. If I own a hotel, It's illegal refuse anyone room-rental based on race, religion or sexual orientation -- regardless of my personal beliefs. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's considered pretty desciminatory to even ask their race, religion or sexual orientation when renting them a room in the first place.

Yet you're saying that the KofC, as as the owners of a hall available for public rental, are perfectly within their rights to deny certain "types" of people the ability to rent it for certain -- perfectly legal -- activities, based soley on their personal beliefs, Right?

Not only that, you're arguing that NOT allowing the KofC the right to deny otherwise publicaly available services to a certain portion of the population is a supression of THEIR rights?

And one of your main arguments for allowing the KofC to essentially descriminate based on sexual orientation is -- if I may paraphrase -- because every once and a while a white guy doesn't get apply for a specific job, so this should be OK too.

That is the thrust of your argument here -- isn't it?

The Webgeek May 24, 2005 12:27 PM said:

Amckay
The above was made while you were responding. And it does seem a bit coy in comparisson.
I'd like to say that I've tried to stay out of the relious debate here (though it is dificult), although I do admit to being a bit cavalere about it at times.

For that I apologize. I no way want you to think I'm attempting to demean your faith or religion. I'm always amazed by the depth of wisdom and compasion that I find in truley faithful people. Those, like you obviously are, who truly take the time to study and understand their beliefs.

I'm sorry that your beliefs and your church are now conflicting. But I think what you are going through is what the Church as a whole is doing. There are some incredibly well meaning and kind people that are mistakenly seeing SSM and other equality fights as an attack on Christianity. Honestly it's not. It is, however, an attack on discrimination, ignorance and outright hatred that cloaks itself as religion. I think your conflict is the same, only from within the church, instead of outside of it.

amckay May 24, 2005 01:13 PM said:

I want to say "See? You're not listening.", but admittedly I'm not doing the best job of eplaining the "white guy" connection. I've tried twice now. Maybe 3 times lucky. This is simply in response to someone's comment in the thread about the Supreme Court. It's not a reason why e.g. KofC should be allowed to refuse to rent their hall for SSM ceremonies. The point is that many opponents of SSM want to see legislation introduced to protect the current definition. And many people in favour of SSM say "sorry, but that's just not an option. You cannot legislate someone's rights away". I've said that many times myself until someone pointed out to me just last week that the state is indeed in the business of legislating people's rights away vis-a-vis equity-employment laws. Now, it also conveniently so-happens that the same people who are traditionally in favour of equity-employment, tend to be the same ones in favour of SSM and tend to be the same ones who say things like "sorry, you cannot legislate poeple's rights away". Like me, for example. I'm one of those people.

I'm just pointing out what IMO is a very solid counter-argument from the other side. One which I have not yet been able to refute. Why can I say it's not OK to legislate rights away in case A, when I turn around and say it's OK to do so in case B? That is hypocracy. And those against SSM know it, and can rightfully point it out to support their argument in favour of legislation to protect the current definition.

Now, as for your other points, yes, they are good ones. The Legion is not a religious group. Bars and restaurants are also not. They therefore are not protected by freedom of religion. And in fact in the case of the Legion the Freedom of Religion of Sikhs won out, as it rightly should. And it just strikes me this moment that you are in favour of their freedom of religion, but against someone else's. More hypocracy? (I'm asking what to me is an interesting question which just struck me, I'm not necessarily accusing you of this).

The case of the pharmacist gets stickier, but I would say that while acting as a pharmacist, this has nothing whatsoever to do with his/her capacity as a religious entity (and vice-versa), so they should not be allowed to refuse services. Furthermore, if I am not mistaken pharmacists are regulated in a similar fashion as doctors and they have a similar obligation to help/treat people. Maybe I'm wrong on that last point, but I do know that drug stores in NS are regulated as per hours of operation, so as to guarantee a certain number of stores in a given area will always be open so that drugs are always available to people who need them. So they have an obligation to society as a pharmacist which should override their religious convictions. They should have been aware of the potential conflict when they became interested in pharmacy, and should have considered it then. Of course, to counter myself one could then say : what about doctors performing abortion? Should all doctors be forced to do this? But that's a whole other mess I'd rather not get into ... ;-)

But the KofC is a religious group, and thus have a right to freedom of religion. I know this is still sticky because sometimes rights conflict, and some religions in particular have some practices which are quite questionable in modern society.

But I still have to wonder what is to be gained by forcing one's views onto another. All I really see from some people is nothing more than the desire to say "Ha! Serves you right! In your face!". Self-proclaimed moral victory as an end in itself and nothing more. Well, there is something more. Not only is it not terribly productive, it is quite counterproductive. It serves only to back the other side further into a corner, to make them even more resolved in opposing you, to make them even less rational, and turn them into matyrs in their own circles. Precisely the opposite of what the real desired outcome should be. Kinda like the US in Iraq, to drag yet another hot potato into this!

Along the lines of "what is to be gained?", I will also re-state what I wrote about religious people living in a different world. The religion of one prominent member of parliament tells him that dinosaur bones were put in the ground by the devil to trick us into thinking god doesn't exist. Should these people have our "enlightenment" forced upon them? If we were to force it upon them, don't you think it would be seen by them as nothing but fulfillment of biblical prophecy? In the end times, afterall, the earth is going to be a rough place to live for Christians. They will be prosecuted for their beliefs, and will have greivous trouble in their day-to-day lives simply by nature of what they believe. Christianity is already embattled. While I'm not saying I'm hearing any of this in church, as a reasonably smart guy I can put 2 and 2 together and figure out the rest. Isn't this essentially what caused the situation in Waco Texas to go downhill fast? What happens when you force 1 billion (plus) relgious people into that same corner? I don't really know, but I can tell you I don't want to be around when it happens. They don't live in the same world as you. Don't assume they are playing by the same rules. Try to understand the rules they play by, and you just may figure out a way to bring the 2 sides together. EDIT : or even better, learn to play by their rules and learn to use them to support your side

EDIT 2 : and I realise some readers are probably thinking I'm crazy as ol' get-out talking about biblical prophecy and so on. That's my point about religious people living in a different world than non-religious people. But that is the world they live in, and It adds a whole degree of complexity to the issue which I do not think most people fully grasp.

amckay May 24, 2005 03:18 PM said:

Oh, I just now see your other post above - we were indeed cross-posing or whatever you want to call it. Co-posting or something.

It's not only difficult to leave religion out of this debate, it's impossible because it's a religious debate for a great number of people. That fact cannot be ignored. To ignore it is to fail to understand. And to fail to understand is to fail.

And no, I did not take this as an attack in any way on my beliefs.

I do not think you and I are really that far apart on this. But I'd like to think I can do more good inside the church than outside, and ultimately that was key in my decision to stay. Though my wife tells me in no uncertain terms that the Catholic Church is by definition a top-down organisation and the lack of 'grass roots' is why other churches eventually broke away. I just know there are an awful lot of really good people there who in their heart of hearts know what is right, and try very hard to do what is right. And I also know that this issue won't be resolved by militants foolishly challenging religious groups by taking them to court to be allowed to hold SSM ceremonies on their premises (I'm not saying this was necessarily the case in the KofC case, I'm just saying that's not the way to win this battle - for already-stated reasons).

I'm trying my best to fully understand all sides. Only through understanding can there ever truly be resolution.

The Webgeek May 24, 2005 03:31 PM said:

Damnit, Amckay I had a huge rebuttal all ready to go, but descided to reload the page and see if you re/co/posted. Seems you're right. we aren't too far off each other.

I will post it anyway, because I think some of its important.

The religion of one prominent member of parliament tells him that dinosaur bones were put in the ground by the devil to trick us into thinking god doesn't exist. Should these people have our "enlightenment" forced upon them?

Replace that dinosaur bones were put in the ground by the devil to trick us into thinking god doesn't exist in the above statement with any of the following:

that his skin color is the chosen skin color, and any other skin color is evil.

that women were put on this earth to make babies. They shouldn't be allowed to hold jobs or get an education

that AIDS is a punishment against gays. Any attempt to cure the disease or help those affected by it, is against God's will

that even though one of the ten commandments is "thou shalt not kill", killing abortion doctors is acceptable, since they're doing the devils work.

that the only way to bring about the second coming of the Lord is to have a religious war on holy land. It is in Christians best interest to perpetuate unrest between Jews and Muslims in Israel in order to bring about this war, and the subsequent rapture

All of these are currently held religious "beliefs".

Now, if this person is a politician (as you stated), or local business owner or community leader; what happens when they use their position in the community, and start actively affecting the lives and well-being of others. What happens when they start insisting on rewriting textbooks to remove opposing view points, when they start forcing laws on the books to limit the freedoms of others that don't fit into their narrow view of the world, when they desperately try to force blinders onto the rest of the world because they don't like what they see, when they are discriminating based on race religion or sexual orientation, then I'm sorry, your right, I'm going to have to insist that "enlightenment" be crammed down their throats. Or, at the very least, insist that they stop trying to shove their "enlightenment" down mine.

When KofC turns around and openly discriminates against gays; when priests and other religious leaders start using their position in the community to actively promote a policy that treats gays as less than equal; when Stephen Harper starts trying to actively push through legislation to turn pack court decisions; you just sort of shrug and say "eh, waddya going to do? its a religious belief". You keep overlooking the fact that real and overt discrimination is happening and instead claim that the perpetrators of this discrimination are instead being persecuted themselves.

You admit to being completely at odds with some of the positions of your Church -- for being against the teachings of Christ, even -- to the point where you're feeling you need to leave it because they no longer represent your faith; yet you are willing to watch them continue down that narrow-minded path. You seem content to allow these people to use your faith and your beliefs to promote discrimination and misinformation that you don't share. Now, imagine how you'd feel if you were gay. What if that religion you were born into, the religion you grew up with, the religion you find comfort and solace in is being used by those around you to, essentially tell you your evil and abhorrent? How conflicted do you think you'd be then?

As for the "white guy thing"...it's not that I don't get it. It's that it's a moot point. It's not a counter argument, its a smoke screen. Its a straw man argument that has nothing to do with the real problem: the church, and the KofC, and everyone that opposes same sex marriage is pushing a homophobic, discriminatory view point. Instead of questioning that core belief and really facing the ugly truth within the Church-- the contradiction between teachings and practical application -- you're flailing around trying to find the weakest of justifications for these actions. You're attempting to point out the speck of sawdust in our eye, instead of noticing the massive, homophobic, log in your own.

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Of, course, I am aware of the irony that you most likely see it as I with the log in the eye, and you the speck of sawdust. How about we both take care of our own damned eyes, ok? ;-)

amckay May 24, 2005 03:39 PM said:

A very good rebuttal indeed! We aren't that far apart at all.

Miss Vicky May 24, 2005 05:06 PM said:

No one is saying the girl and her two friends shouldn't have any cake - only that the little brother should have an equal slice. This point is made quite clearly on the pro side. They've even made an effort to reach out to religious communities - and indeed have received support from several church groups, the Muslim Canadian Congress and the World Sikh Organization.

The Supreme Court made it pretty clear, too, in their reference.

the guarantee of religious freedom in s. 2(a) of the Charter is broad enough to protect religious officials from being compelled by the state to perform civil or religious same-sex marriages that are contrary to their religious beliefs


amckay May 24, 2005 09:54 PM said:

I don't disagree with you. I'm only trying my very best to see the other side. Nothing earthly really matters when your immortal soul is at risk ... and that's what folks perceive is at stake here. Clergy may not be forced to perform GLB ceremonies, but to them it's just as bad if they are forced to rent their church hall for those ceremonies.

I'm not sure if there is room for compromise on either side. Maybe the solution really is having something shoved down one's throat ... I guess each side just has to hope they are the one's doing the shoving.

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