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Wuthering Commutes

Wed Jun 8, 2005 The Webgeek 

Woo hoo! Despite today's rain, we're up to 10 people on our team! That's 50% of my projected population -- up from a "balance of power" to a "Quebec referendum" of participation. Way to go folks! As always, please remember to log in and post your commute distance if you're a member or join us if you're not -- because there are those out there that think Hummers can be environmentally friendly (opens in real audio-- sorry)

Some people were moved to reply

amckay Jun 8, 2005 10:00 AM said:

I'm always of two minds with fuel economy. Firstly, over the long term it isn't really going to matter - we're going to burn everything that's there. I don't think anyone is going to fool themselves into thinking otherwise. 100 years from now there will be nothing left no matter what we do. So the impact on the environment is the same.

As things stand right now, neither government nor industry are doing much in the line of alternate fuels. In fact, both government and industry have a long history of only reacting on an issue when pushed to the absolute limit. Only at the last possible moment do they react. They put it off as long as they possibly can.

So in fact if we burn more fuel, we encourage both government and industry to act sooner. The faster we burn it all, the sooner they are going to react, and the better off we'll be. Once again, in 100 years it's all going to be gone either way, so what's the diff?

The argument in favour of fuel economy is that we need to buy time to develop alternate fuels. But if government and industry aren't going to budge until they have to, is that really buying us anything?

The Webgeek Jun 8, 2005 10:47 AM said:

Hmmm, not sure I follow you there Amckay.

Burning fuel at the rate we are is drastically effecting the eco-system in very bad ways, but government and industry is doing little to stop that. So instead of pushing hard now for changes, lets just burn those fossil fuels *faster* so that we run out of it and force the switch to something more sustainable.

Thats like letting your dog crap in the house instead of training it, because eventually he'll just run out of carpeting to crap on and HAVE to do it outside.

See, I'm with George Carlin on this one. It's not really about saving the 'environment'. The environment will, in one way or another, still be here. It might be gross and nasty and populated by only the most hardy of cockroach, mold, and algae descendants, but it'll still be an 'environment'. It's about saving our sorry asses, and wanting to live in as clean an environment as possible populated with as many cute fuzzy creatures and pretty flowers as we can handle. Or, essentially, not living in a house thats covered in wall to wall dog crap.

[fixed my spelling before Miss Vicky's head exploded ;-) ]

amckay Jun 8, 2005 10:53 AM said:

Like I said : we're going to burn it all anyway. Wouldn't you agree?

Even if we conserve, the dog is still crapping in the house. If we don't conserve, we've got X years of oil left. If we do conserve, we've got Y years, where Y > X. Either way, there is Z crap going into the environment. Z (the amount of dog shit) is constant no matter what we do.

What do you figure are reasonable values for X and Y? And is the difference between the two really going to make a difference in the negative effects on the environment?

Real questions. Important questions.

The Webgeek Jun 8, 2005 11:32 AM said:

Well, first off, much like dog poop, there are those that don't think we'll be running out of oil any time soon, so there may not be an X.

Secondly, to continue with the poop analogy, the way to train a dog to stop crapping in the house is to first get them to do it in a small, paper covered place next to the back door (i.e. conserving gas consumption and producing cleaner burning fuels). Then you start moving them outside (i.e using alternate fuels) after that. Yes, you still have to deal with the same amount of crap, but having that crap confined to a small patch of paper on the back porch is much, much, more preferable to always finding big, steaming piles in the family room.

Of course, there are those that argue that the best way to stop the crap is just to get rid of the dog, but we both know that won't happen. The dog's part of the family now.

amckay Jun 8, 2005 12:08 PM said:

That's an interesting theory, though as the article says, not many people believe it. Pretty much everyone else believes in peak oil, and only quibble on when we'll hit the peak (any time between right now, and about 40 years from now, depending on whom you ask)

As for the poop, it is still inside the house either way, even though you keep insisting on putting it outside the house. If we could pump our emissions out to the moon or something, I'd permit that in your analogy. BUt this earth is our home, and we are all inside it. With our emissions and trash.

The real counter is to show that while the earth is unable to digest our emissions at the current rate, that it could indeed digest them just fine at a reduced rate. And you'd further have to show that we were capable of achieving that reduced rate.

None of this is to say that I don't try to reduce my own consumption, because I most certainly do. Like Gold in your article, however, I think it is healthy to challenge common beliefs, because common sense while often common, just as often makes no sense.

I'm still waiting for a good counter to my argument.

The Webgeek Jun 8, 2005 01:12 PM said:

The real counter is to show that while the earth is unable to digest our emissions at the current rate, that it could indeed digest them just fine at a reduced rate.

No the real counter is saying that we should find ways of producing cleaner, safer forms of emmisions. If we must burn stuff, find ways of burning it cleaner so it produces CO2 instead of Carbon Monoxide and Hydro Carbons. At least untill we can burn hydrogen, that produces water as it's emmision. Lets start dealing woth those emmisions we do produce by using air scrubbers, or just plain old house plants to pull as much of the crap out of the air as possible.

Manufacturing things with an eye to recyling them after their done and making sure the manufacturing proccess is ecologically sound.

See, we're not really emmiting anything. We're converting it form one form to another. So we can either continue to convert it to harmful formats, or not. We can keep letting the dog crap on our rugs, or we can find a better way of dealling with it.

amckay Jun 8, 2005 03:41 PM said:

I agree with you, but you've only painted a circle back to my original comment. We need cleaner, safer forms of emissions. But you admit yourself that government and industry is doing little about it. Now we're right back at my original hypothesis : the only way to make government and industry do something about it is to burn what we have as fast as we can. Bring them to the point where they have no choice but to do something about it. If we're going to burn it all anyway, what's the diff how fast we burn it?

Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar Jun 8, 2005 03:54 PM said:

Can we get a Hummer to run on dog crap?

Sea Salt & Malt Vinegar Jun 8, 2005 03:59 PM said:

I periodically start new diets by using the same logic:
1. I must stop eating so much ice cream and chocolate.
2. I will eat all the ice cream and chocolate tonight so that I can't eat anymore tomorrow.
3. Ooops, my predicated date for Peak Ice Cream date was wrong - it turns out there is plenty more at the Loeb. I'll have to eat all the grocery store ice cream quickly so I can start my diet.
4. I think I'm going to throw up.

Miss Vicky Jun 8, 2005 04:05 PM said:

I was going to make a similar analogy with alcohol, but ice cream works.

The Webgeek Jun 8, 2005 04:16 PM said:

Can we get a Hummer to run on dog crap?

Not yet...

We have to perfect the Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor first.
Of course fuel efficiency stats will become a little confusing.

"How many Miles to the Malamute does that thing get?"
"It depends... Are we talking an Alpo diet, or strictly dry food?"

The Webgeek Jun 8, 2005 05:06 PM said:

The Ice cream analogy does work well. It seem we keep finding intersting sources of combustable fuel to extend our dependancy.

Lets look at it another way. What if, instead of fuel efficiency, we were talking about car safety. By your logic, would we want to try and run out of passangers or drivers to start making the car companies try and make safer vehicles? Or would you be ok with straight up legislation. It took exposure like Ralph Nader's "Unsafe at Any Speed" and the whole Pinto "safety doesn't sell" debacle to turn things around.

By having we the public putting pressure on the government to make fuel efficiency and alternate fuels a priority, we are starting to see mass-produced hybrid vehicles, and test markets for hydrogen fuel popping up.

Miss Vicky Jun 8, 2005 05:10 PM said:

BTW dog-poop-powered Hummers may not be that far away. There are farms powered by cow manure!

The Webgeek Jun 8, 2005 05:18 PM said:

there's also toxic waste eating bacteria power and new low emmision concept cars that are apperently powered by ulgy.

amckay Jun 8, 2005 05:41 PM said:

The ice cream analogy doesn't work because there is an essentially limitless supply of it at the supermarket.

I don't quite follow your car safety analogy, but I'd be just fine with straight-up legislation. And yes, we are finally starting to see some movement there. But is that movement really because of public pressure? Or is it because the government knows more about peak oil than they are telling the rest of us? (key 'conspiracy theory' music). In which case I'm right : the best way to get them to act is to use up what's there as quickly as possible.

We know that it is extremely rare for any government to look much beyond the next election on just about any issue. The issues at hand here just aren't immediate enough to matter to them, so we have to make them immediate.

amckay Jun 8, 2005 05:43 PM said:

BTW, the poopy-powered farms are way too cool! I've seen that before. The government should legislate this technology for all feed-lots since it deals with the waste problem and produces electricity. The byproduct is also apparantly extremely good compost that can be used by the farm and any excess sold.

accidental altruist Jun 8, 2005 10:26 PM said:

well, my "alternate fuel" happens to be fruity rum drinks and gelato this time o' year. i'm always on my bike - even in the winter. i say wean folks off 'a their motor vehicles all together. we've got too many new communities sprouting up have been engineered around cars and where they need to park.... imagine more places like the Toronto Islands!
Visit Our Site
[fixed the HTML by request -- webgeek]
[and I fixed my screw-up of the HTML -- sigh -- webgeek]

accidental altruist Jun 8, 2005 10:53 PM said:

forgot to mention - i just signed rayna and i up for Miss Vicky's team! wheee!




The Webgeek Jun 22, 2005 03:49 PM said:

Hey AMckay,
Looks like the ice cream analogy might be true after all. As it turns out, my initial thought that Alberta tarsands, gas hydrates, and other "unconventional" sources will become very popular, and extend our fuel supplies much further than initially anticipated.

amckay Jun 24, 2005 11:35 AM said:

Well, the proof of the pudding shall be in the eating. I remain skeptical.

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