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Don't turn back the clock: benefit Thursday

Tue Aug 15, 2006 Miss Vicky 

Parliament is supposed to revisit the issue of same-sex marriage this fall. So local musicians and activists have organized a benefit concert to send a message to our PM. Various local politicos will be in attendance, and I am told the music will be "fantastic".

Zaphod Beeblebrox presents

"DON'T TURN BACK THE CLOCK"

A group of Canadian musicians and other fair-minded Canadians are staging an event to tell Prime Minister Stephen Harper not to turn back the clock on same-sex marriage.
Featuring
THE HABIT
SIENNA DAHLEN
who recently recorded a session for CBCs Jazz Beat
DJ MORALES
winner of CBC Radios 2006 Poetry Face-Off

Thursday, August 17/ 2006 (Doors 8pm)
Zaphod Beeblebrox27 York Street
Age 19+/ General Admission ADVANCE TICKETS: $6.00 at Ticketweb

The Habit's song "Fighter", which you can download from their site, was released in May as a response to Harper's promise to re-open the marriage debate. So I'm looking forward to hearing them. I'll be heading over after the meeting at Family Services Ottawa.

Some people were moved to reply

ABC Aug 21, 2006 02:22 PM said:

Don't turn back the clock. Interesting saying. Were you using that when homosexuals turned back the clock on marriage? Since when do proponents of homosexual marriage become fair-minded? Meaning, are opponents not fair-minded?

The Webgeek Aug 21, 2006 03:26 PM said:

*Equal marriage* turned back nothing. It advanced equal rights for all Canadians by ensuring that no one set of people had no more of a right to marry than another -- so yes, opponents to *equal marriage* are NOT being fair minded.

ABC, I'd be very careful about how you proceed in these forums. Your bigotry and ignorance is starting to wear thin.

[Edited By The Webgeek Aug 21, 2006 03:50 PM]

ABC Aug 25, 2006 10:03 AM said:

It did turn us back, it turned us back to the Romans and the Greek times where homosexuality was very prevelant. Marriage is not a right, never has been. There is no such thing as equal marriage because 2 men and 2 women are not the same as 1 man and 1 woman. What you call bigotry webgeek is the doctrine of many religions, including Catholicism which I am a Catholic. You're bordering on anti-religious discrimination here and hate language.

Unlike you though, I would allow you to insult me like this, as I believe in tolerance and free speech. Tolerance is so often used by the left until its something they disagree with and then they shout and cry bigotry where there is none.

Miss Vicky Aug 25, 2006 11:19 AM said:

We calls bigotry when we sees it, ABC. I guess we won't be seeing you at the Pride parade this weekend, huh?

liss76 Aug 25, 2006 11:23 AM said:

Well, it seems to me that if your religion precludes being gay and married then it is completely your choice to be heterosexual and partnered to someone of the opposite sex.

It *is* discrimination to force your religious views and values on society at large when not everyone shares your religious viewpoint or possesses a 'religious' viewpoint at all.

I wholeheartedly agree that the government cannot and should not attempt to force the church to perform or support homosexual unions. I do not, however, support the Christian community or any other religous community trying to enforce their beliefs and values on the larger society--particularly when a significant percentage of the population is lay-Christian at best or affiliated with no religion in particular.

That, ABC, smacks of bigotry.

How is it hurting you if a couple of atheist lesbians decide to get married? Really? Does it threaten you that much?

My vision of Canada includes freedom of choice--whether that's freedom to be gay and married, or Catholic and using condoms.

-Liss76 (who, for the record, is a bisexual who ~OMG~ married a _man_ in a Baptist church 10 years ago this October)

The Webgeek Aug 25, 2006 11:34 AM said:

Marriage is not a right, never has been.

Married couples are granted specific rights, privleges and legal protections that non-married couples do not have. So yes, there is a right to marry. One that was not shared equally for all couples.

Allowing one group (same-sex couples) the same rights and abilities that were previously only enjoyed by another (heterosexuals) does in no way discriminate or infringe on your rights in any way shape or form. To claim that you're being "discriminated" against simply because you can no longer discriminate against another is pure an unadultered bullshit.

This isn't about Left vs Right or Religion vs Homosexuals. This is about affording all Canadians, regardless of political, religious, or sexual affiliation the same protections under the law. But you don't want to see that, because it is becoming patently obvious that you (not so) secretly believe "homosexuals" to be something to be shunned from society.

ABC Aug 25, 2006 11:49 AM said:

It *is* discrimination to force your religious views and values on society at large when not everyone shares your religious viewpoint or possesses a 'religious' viewpoint at all.

Liss, you can use that false argument against secularists too. So, who gets to impose what on society? You suggested that the millenae definition of marriage is bigoted and I take great offense to that suggestion on your part.

If you want to talk about how it hurts people, I can give you many examples but this one should suffice. The Knights of Columbus were brought to the HRC by 2 lesbians who wanted to celebrate their "marriage" reception at their hall. Yes, I do seem harm, very much so.

ABC Aug 25, 2006 11:54 AM said:

There is no right to marriage, its not even in the books as a right webgeek. Your desire to have it so, does not make it.

I have proven with my previous post that yes, religious people are hurt by this change in definition.

Let me quote Professor Mike Adams on this as he states this better than I:

I prefer to call it the “gay privileges” movement because gays are not presently deprived of anything that is rightfully theirs. A gay man has the same right I have to marry a woman. His waiver of that actual right does not allow him to substitute another “right” he deems more suitable to his needs.

Homosexuals need not be shunned, I've never stated that and I won't. The behaviour however, is what I believe needs to be addressed. I believe the homosexual parade (which should never be on taxpayer dollars) demonstrates my point very effectively.

Miss Vicky Aug 25, 2006 12:20 PM said:

No right to marriage? 100 law professors disagree, not to mention higher courts in most Canadian provinces and the Supreme Court of Canada. This is about equality, and it's about civil marriage. No religious institution has been forced to marry a same sex couple - the Charter protects this, just as it protects the rights of same-sex couples to equal recognition of their marriages under the law.

By "the behaviour", you mean a couple declaring their love for each other in front of friends and family, and having that union recognized by the state?

The more I hear statements like ABC's, the more I am convinced that we need Pride Week. And that's why I'll be there on Sunday celebrating equality and diversity in our community.

The Webgeek Aug 25, 2006 12:43 PM said:

Homosexuals need not be shunned, I've never stated that and I won't. The behaviour however, is what I believe needs to be addressed.

So, as long as they don't *act* gay, you're cool with them then?

You cool with a city funded St. Patrick's day parade? Is it alright for a bunch of people to run around *acting* Irish? (well, acting drunk, and pretending to be Irish -- something that is actually pretty offensive to actual Irish people and culture if you ask me). Is it ok to *act* Muslim? Or *act* black? How about feminists *actions*? Are they all right?

Please give me a list of "acceptable" actions that I am allowed to perform so as not to "harm" you with my non-conformist behaviour.

[Edited By The Webgeek Aug 25, 2006 12:45 PM]

liss76 Aug 25, 2006 12:48 PM said:

[applauds Vicky and Webgeek]

amckay Aug 25, 2006 08:11 PM said:

Um, I thought that the Knights of Columbus were allowed in the end to refuse them their ceremony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K nights_of_Columbus

That's what the HRC (Human Rights Council) is there for - to resolve disputes. The Lesbians claimed they didn't know it was a Catholic Institution, and if that's true then I think they did nothing wrong. i.e. they weren't just trying to "stick it to the church" like Gwen Jacobs in a different context ("stick it to the state" - and actually in that case I'm behind Ms Jacobs 100%!)

In this case the HRC made the right decision IMO.

Hey, I'm as Catholic as the next guy. Actualluy statistically speaking I'm probably way more Catholic than most people who claim to be that, because I actually go to Church regularly, volunteer my time there, and have been elected to Church Council. I disagree with most of what The Church stands for, yet miraculously I stay with them. I've decided it's part of my lifelong journey to understand everyone. If I can ever understand a real die-hard 52-a-year-or-more church-going Catholic, I'm pretty sure I can understand everyone. :-)

And I disagree with them to no end on this issue, but at the same time I do see that it is important that people also have the rights to be protected in their beliefs, as skewed as I believe those beliefs to be.

Yay HRC!

ABC Aug 28, 2006 10:49 AM said:

Vicky, take a look at the pictures in today's Citizen. If that's what being homosexual is all about, no thanks. The pictures were disgusting in my view, and I'm sure it doesn't help them in gaining any respect.

ABC Aug 28, 2006 10:56 AM said:

Webgeek, what do you mean by acting like a homosexual? I'm assuming you mean in the parade. I don't think that its a plus to act like they do in these parades. I was listening to CFRA last week and a homosexual guy phoned up and stated he doesn't like these parades and considers it to be degrading to homosexuals, it also reinforces the stereotypes they claim to not like.

Do you have any idea how much money the St. Patrick's Day gets? Do you know how much money they raise on their own, rather than like the homosexual parade who demands that all the money be on the backs of taxpayers? Or how about when the St. Patrick's Day parade closed because of a lack of funds, did they claim an anti-Catholic or anti-Irish bias on City Council as the homosexual parade group did? Were the St. Patrick's parade participants wearing outfits that were overtly sexually suggestive or simulating sexual acts on their floats like they do in the homosexual parade? Bud, if you're going to do a comparison, you don't have a leg to stand on.

I wonder if they did follow through with their $5 charge and I wonder how much money they actually did bank?

ABC Aug 28, 2006 11:04 AM said:

Amckay, I don't think that Wikipedia is a good source of accurate information. The Knights of Columbus were told by the HRT to pay damages to these 2 lesbians. Check the decision here:

http://www.bchrt.bc.ca/decisio ns/2005/pdf/Smith_and_Chymyshy n_v_Knights_of_Columbus_and_ot hers_2005_BCHRT_544.pdf

The lesbians claim that they didn't know it was a Catholic Institution is a false one. There are pictures of Jesus, the Pope and so forth within their hall. I've seen the pictures.

Now, to your last point about being Catholic. If you disagree with most of what the Church is teaching, what are you teaching on the Church council, your views, or the Church's? Hope its not like the situation at St. Joseph's. Why do you stay and get involved when you fundamentally disagree with them? Are you expecting a change in yourself? Shouldn't you step down since you're taking a spot from someone who actually practices what they are preached?

ABC Aug 28, 2006 11:32 AM said:

Miss Vicky, the charter doesn't protect the churches, you're wrong with that. The Liberal government finally admitted as such as it is under provincial jurisdiction.

ABC Aug 28, 2006 11:37 AM said:

Vicky, what these professors seem to omit is how the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in the Egan case that marriage is by nature, between a man and woman. Then, in the most recent ruling, they refused to call that discriminatory.

We all know that the universities in our country and predominantly filled by leftwingers who support homosexual marriage. Their opinions on this issue is just that, an opinon, but its an opinion without any logic. That's where I stand.

The Webgeek Aug 28, 2006 12:19 PM said:

marriage is by nature, between a man and woman.

Huh? by what "nature"? I've never seen a marriage in the wild. No squirrel nuptuals ever took place in my backyard (and it's pretty popular with squirrels, let me tell you). Not once have I seen a National Geographic article written about the different marriage habits of lowland gorrilas vs. their mountain cousins.

oh, wait... you mean "traditional". Gotcha.

See, marriage was "traditionally" a union of families, in the larger context (as in the Hatfields and the Macoys -- or the Windsors and the Stewarts). It was a way for one family to solidify political ties with another one. Most marriages, "traditionally" were arranged affairs where the parents would get together and decide whose daughter would marry which son of this land owner or count or merchant. Of course this was back when women were "traditionally" thought of as mere possessions. A father owned his daughters and gave them away to another man's son in exchange for ties to their family. That's what marriage "traditionally" was. Love never came into the equation. Choice wasn't afforded to the participants. Not "traditionally". And at the time, a woman's only worth was a (hopefully male) baby factory. Of course, we've long since moved beyond that. Thankfully, women are considered (by most sane individuals) as people in our society (and under the law) and are capable of holding down jobs and public office and allowed the priviledge of selecting the person they wish to marry all by themselves. No longer bound by family honour and duty, women -- and men -- are now free to marry the person they love. We've already (mostly) moved beyond the "traditional" barriers of inter-racial unions and inter-faith unions, and are now finally allowing those who desire to enter commited relations with a same sex partner that ability as well, should they so desire.

The concept of marriage changed from it's "traditional" meaning quite some time ago. This is just part of its final progression.

You are more than welcome to continue your "traditionalist" ways if you so desire, but careful how far back you go. The law no longer lets you club a mate and drag her back to your cave.

Miss Vicky Aug 28, 2006 12:41 PM said:

Oh where to begin? And is it even worth it?

Rather than address the ridiculous remarks about the parade (which was great, by the way - my favourites were the large Anglican contingent with the "God thinks I'm fabulous" t-shirts, and the kids from Ten Oaks camp - a camp for kids of LGBT parents), or amckay's Christianity, or the bizarre comments about university professors, I'll stick to the legal. I'm really not sure what the point of referencing the Egan case is, since: "The Supreme Court of Canada said (Egan v. Canada, [1995] 2 S.C.R. 513 at 593-594) "The public recognition and acceptance of homosexuals as a couple may be of tremendous importance to them and to the society in which they live. To deny homosexual couples the right to make that choice deprives them of the equal benefit of the law." As a result of Egan, sexual orientation was judged to be analogous to other protected personal attributes listed in section 15 of the Charter." But the Egan case was not about marriage - it was about whether the old age security act was unconstitutional in not including common law, same sex partners.

The reality is (at least, according to the Department of Justice, which I can only presume has the most comprehensive understanding of jurisprudence in this matter), "It is only the recent marriage Reference decision of the Supreme Court of Canada that is a commentary on the fundamental definition of marriage in Canadian law. In that decision, a unanimous Court held that the goal of extending civil marriage to include same-sex couples "flows from" the Charter."



Oh, and you'll find reference to the protection of religious freedom in that "common misconceptions" page as well.

Now, can we turn our attention to local issues, since that's what this blog is mostly about???

[Edited By Miss Vicky Aug 28, 2006 01:33 PM]

The Webgeek Aug 28, 2006 01:05 PM said:

Vicky, take a look at the pictures in today's Citizen. If that's what being homosexual is all about, no thanks.

People dressing up and acting outrageous in a parade????? Who'd a thunk it. Jeez, do you think the guy who pretends to be Santa in the Santa Claus parade dresses and acts like that all the time too? (I do hope you realize Santa Claus isn't real -- you do seem a little detached from reality on certain issues)

What you're doing is the classic "holding up the exception and pretending its the rule" fallicy when it comes to homosexuality. You might as well take pictures of kids during Hallowe'en and proclaim that that's what it means to be "a child".

See, I took a bunch of pictures too. I can post them if you want. Not of the "extroverts" though. Just normal every day folks who happened to be gay, or were comfortable with the concept of homosexuality in general. There were Police officers there who were clearly not just there "on duty". Some emergency workers that seemed very comfortable with the concept of "pride". A group called "SAGE" (an organization dedicated to meeting the unique needs of the senior gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender communities) -- they pretty much looked like everyday seniors. Lots of sporty types, with volley balls and whistles have a grand time. You know what, except for the one float full of Marilyn Monroe's, most of the people looked pretty normal. In fact, save the occasional cheeky t-shirt, you'd be pretty hard pressed to tell if someone was gay or not.

Oh, yaa, there was also a bunch with a big "Proud Anglicans" banner. There were a few with "Christian and Gay" signs. And quite a lot of people wearing "God thinks I'm Fabulous" t-shirts. Two different groups proclaiming to be Unitarians with "pride" too. I can't remember their particular catchy slogan though. So it would appear that for some people, they seem to find a balance between their faith, their beliefs, and the doctrine of their church.

liss76 Aug 29, 2006 11:54 AM said:

"God thinks I'm Fabulous"

Okay, now that's awesome on so many levels!

I wonder if I can get that in kid sizes.. ;o)

ABC Sep 6, 2006 09:25 AM said:

I won't address 90% of the replies but just one here. I cannot believe you would compare someone dressing up as Santa Claus to a homosexual who dresses up in an S & M outfit and feigning sexual acts. I didn't call that outrageous, I called it disgusting. If this is an exception, why is it so prevelant in these parades and the like? Please, if you want to lie about this issue, you're not fooling me. Remember, they call this a pride parade, they obviously own these outfits and use them quite often. Common sense would tell anyone that much.

If these Anglicans actually believe that God supports the act of homosexuality, they certainly ignored his words on this, over and over in the Bible (which supposedly they are supposed to follow as a Christian). Yes, God loves them, but not the sin. If you're thinking Deuteronomy, its not the only mention, check the New Testament, St. Paul has a lot to say on this. A T-shirt just won't cut it, the Word of God supercedes it every time. But they should know that, as Christians.

Lastly, Vicky, the Supreme Courts last ruling on marriage is that a man and a woman is constitutional. As I've said, the liberals admitted finally, that they cannot protect churches as its a provincial responsibility. You've got your head in the sand if you think otherwise.

If you didn't want to discuss this issue Vicky, you certainly didn't indicate that until your last sentence of your last post.

The Webgeek Sep 6, 2006 10:19 AM said:

1 guy! Out of the the HUNDREDS that where there, 1 (ONE! -- singular) guy showed up in a leather bat winged out fit, acting campy.

yes. I'd call that the exception.

Miss Vicky Sep 6, 2006 10:40 AM said:

dude, i read the reference. did you?

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